Lets say you have a reel and set it at 8lbs of drag. You put it on a 9ft rod and pull line to test the drag, then you put the same reel, same drag setting on a 6ft rod and test the drag. Which rod will test out higher? Or will they both be the same? I am trying to see if rod length effects drag.

Al,

I would suggest this as a test:
- Set the drag on your reel and attach it to your 9 ft rod.
- Tie your line on to a scale used to weigh fish.
- Record how many pounds of "force" you can apply with the rod
- Now remove the reel WITHOUT touching the drag and attach it to the 6 foot rod.
- Tie it to the fish scale and record how much force you can apply.

You chould either loosen or tighten the drag and repeat the whole experiment over again if you wanted to get a range of results.
I would guess that the result would be the same if the force was applied slowly, but the longer rod might have more force if it is applied quickly (ie hook set).
Also because the results of the two rods might be different but similar enough that it is hard to tell the difference you could try using a very long and very short rod. Like a 13 ft rod and a 2 foot ice rod. Just a thought.

Let us know how it turns out.

Patrick Rutledge

I may not understand your question. The drag on the reel will still slip at the same point regardless of rod length. 8lbs is 8lbs.

.................

for a moment, i was thinking the longer rod would have 'more' drag, .. but in the end, i think it's what Tom says .. 8lb is 8lb ..

sorta like which is heavier, 1kg of lead and 1 kg of feathers..

-
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day..
Teach a man to fish, he'll be broke!

It depends on the number and style of guides you use as to how much darg is being used.
The reel still slips the same amount with the same amount of force but that force is dictated by the force pulling against the line. Anything you add to the line (lure, fish, weights...) adds to the amount of pressure being applied. Because the guides add friction, they increase the amount of force being applied to the reel.
Try this, using the same scale, pull against the reel in a straight line and record the weight when the drag slips. Using the same scale, try it again but this time with the rod arched (as if you were fighting a fish). It may not be much but it should be different.

OH yea I have done the test and the drag is the same no matter what the lenght of the rod. Just wondering if there was a general theory on the rod building community. How much extra pressure do guides add if any? I have found that rollers add none. What about ring guides?

Allow me to take a crack at this one... I believe I understand the question. Rod length does not affect reel drag but it does affect the effort required on the part of both fish and fisherman. A shorter rod takes away some of the leverage advantage any rod offers the fish. The longer the rod the more force the fish can apply against the fisherman and the less force the fisherman can apply against the fish.

Barry hit it right on and got exactly what I was going to say.

The drag will slip at exactly the same point. When the reel reaches 8lbs of pressure, the drag will slip. However to get that point on a 9ft rod it will require much more effort on part of the angler, while a 6ft rod will require significantly less effort by the angler. Ever see a 9ft stand up tuna rod? There's your reason.

Yes I have and I build a few too and longer ones (land based game fishing including high speed spin)......what Barry and Sean say are correct but that problem has a work around. The blanks lengths are required for presenting metal lures, stickbaits and poppers to tuna and working those lures but the blank selected should still fold away closer to the reel. There was a time when only the lighter lines to 30lbs could be used on long rods for gamefish but a newer generation of blank designs pioneered by the Japanese have changed all that

You say the longer the rod the less force you can apply to the fish. I have read that before so I am not questioning it but can you explain this to me: (I hope I make sense)
in general terms while fighting a fish you raise the rod from the 3 o'clock position (horizontal) to the 12 o'clock position (vertical), then you drop the rod reel in slack line and repeat the process over and over. (try not to get hung up on exactly which angle I am moving the rod to/from)

The tip of a longer rod should travel further then the tip of a shorter rod as I move from the 3 to 12 position. Which is part of why a longer rod gives a 'better' hook set. Doesn't this mean that the longer rod is applying more force? Does this mean a long rod will apply slightly more force but it will take a lot more effort on my part to apply the force?

I hope that was clear. I doubt it though. I hope someone can help sort me out on this issue. Thank you.

Patrick Rutledge

Rohit, I did indeed forget to mention that as the true measure point is where the blank will cease to bend. So a 6ft ex-fast blank may end up requiring the same if not more power than a 9ft slow action rod that bends to just above the foregrip. Physics can be very tricky at times especially with dynamic change as there is never a drag that will remain perfectly constant while fighting a fish. The fish tires, your angle changes, etc, it is really to dynamic of a change to truly measure.

Patrick,

The longer rod is bringing in more line per pump. You don't get something for nothing in nature - you get something only at the expense of giving up something else. The longer rod will not apply as much force as the shorter rod, but the shorter rod will not recover line as fast as the longer rod.

Hook sets are a bit more difficult to explain. Generally you will get a better and more solid hookset with a longer rod but this has more to do with the ability to quickly remove any slack or give in the line and to move the hook faster, almost "popping" it into the mouth of the fish. Hook setting is not all about power - it is about distance and speed as well.

...............

kinda forgot about the pivot/fulcrum in the equation .. though length of rod matters, it also matters whereabouts on the rod you are gripping (presumably the foregrip or reel seat)..

gripping the foregrip 14 inches from butt is different from gripping the foregrip maybe 24 inches from the butt even if the length of the rod is essentially the same.. the closer you grip to your self, the more leverage to the fish.. it may feel as though there is more 'drag', but it actuality, its the same.. it's just the effect of the pivot working against you..

-
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day..
Teach a man to fish, he'll be broke!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2009 10:21PM by Christopher Tan.

As discussed in previous threads in fighting mode the rod is a class 2 lever.
pivot point at the butt.......... effort point at the foregrip.............. output point at the tip.
The exact equation for explaining the effect of long rod vs short rod is the direct line lever length ( butt to foregrip hand position) divided by the direct line lever length ( tip to butt) of the deflected rod
it identifies effort efficiency.

At the same drag setting the result is less effort required with the shorter rod compared to the longer rod.

When it comes to pulling efficiency, blank action becomes a significant factor in that equation as it changes the tip to butt lever length as a result of different deflection for the same load.

Interesting trends are that :-
- effort efficiency on any rod is worst at light loads ( lower deflection ) than at high loads
- effort efficiency is higher at the bottom of a pump stroke than at the top ( but thats an angle of attack issue rather than a rod deflection issue )
ie........... explains the short-stroking technique benefit.

"pivot point at the butt.......... effort point at the foregrip.............. output point at the tip."

Is not always the case
The pivot point depends on how you hold the while fighting the fish
If you are using a gimbals mount or have the butt of the rod braced against your body, the pivot point is the butt.
But if you palm the reel as I and many other bass fishermen do the, then the pivot point is at that location unless you have the remainder of the handle braced against you forearm

I would also think if you are palming the reel during the fight? The pivot point and effort point are the same location.

Tom,

As always you are a wealth of knowledge. Let me see if I understand this. Lets say I snag a small stick, something that will provide resistance as I reel it in but not 'fight' like a fish. Using a pumping motion a long rod will allow me to retrieve it faster but will require more upper body strength to do it. Is that correct? Thank you.

Patrick Rutledge

Yes.

...............

Al,
Drag is set on a reel for two reasons, and two reasons only.
1. The drag is initially set tight enough to be able to set the hook and to have enough drag to slow a large fish on its run.
2. The drag is set loose enough to avoid breaking the fishing line.

When drag is set and when it is checked, the testing should be done with the line and rod pointed straight toward the measuring device - as would be the case when letting a fish run.

By pointing the rod - with its attached guides - the guides and the length of the rods are not part of the equation.

The only thing you are measuring is the resistive force of the reel drag settings.

That is why - when setting the hook on a fish, you will get added force due to the drag from the rods guides.
However, that is also, why - when a fish makes a run - with a lot of line out, or when the fish is right by the boat, one should always drop the rod tip, to allow the line to freely spool off the reel, without influence by guide drag.

Good luck

Roger

maybe i'm fishing wrongly, but i always thought that the drag should be set with lines running thru the guides as in how you do the static deflection test, and not directly in line with the measuring device..

-
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day..
Teach a man to fish, he'll be broke!

That is how I set the drag as well. I set the drag to slip with how I want the rod to feel as I fight the fish. Then I tighten it 2 or 3 click so it's extra tight for the hook set.

Patrick Rutledge