Instead of continuing the fray of what the CCS will not do, I thought I would share what it will do and what I can do with it.

I can look at the CCS numbers and tell if a blank or rod is more or less powerful than another blank or rod. I can tell if a blank or rod is faster or slower than another blank or rod. I can take the numbers and get a pretty good idea of how the blank flexes and how much power if offers. With more work on the frequency aspect of the CCS, I hope to be able to tell more about the quickness and responsiveness of a blank or rod.

I can take the CCS measurements BEFORE and AFTER the blank is built into a rod and tell how much I may have changed the characteristics of the original blank. It also tells me which component set disturbs the original blank characteristics the least. It has altered my way of choosing guides and how I finish the wraps.

If I want to trim a blank from the butt, I will slide the blank back into the support and take the measurements from that point. If I want to trim from the tip, I slide the penny bag back to the point of the intended trim and take the measurements from that point. This tells me what change to expect in power and action between the original length blank, and the trimmed version of that blank BEFORE I actually make the cut. I have ruined blanks in the past by trimming a bit too much at the outset. Now that does not happen because I can try the blank at different points until I get what I am after, only then do I make the cut.

On several occasions I have found blanks with no model numbers or identification. I have used the equations to get some idea of the casting range of the blank. This has been very helpful in some situations. With a better understanding of the URRS, I think I will be able to expand this ability by a large degree.

This is what I am able to do with the CCS. I do not care what others cannot do with it, but would like to hear what others can and are doing with it. Let's hear it!

Bravo! A most constructive use of the system. My use of the CCS parallels your own.

I can put together a list of blanks of similar characteristics at various price ranges using the CCS...and I may find that a less expensive blank actually fits what I want better than a more expensive one...or that there is no substitute for that SCV!

And in line with what was mentioned above I can find the effect of an extension (as well as trim) on a blank before I make it permanent.

There is also the discovery factor...when I find what it is about a blank that I like using the data and not just the 'ol shake test.

Are you primarily using this with fly, casting, trolling, etc rods?

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AD

Sometimes I have to select between a couple of blanks I have on hand and find that even shaking by hand I can't really tell much if any difference between them. But the CCS will easily show any difference no matter how small. It is just a matter of a minute or two to select the more powerful one or the one with the faster action.

Another thing I do which I have not seen discussed here is finding the straightest axis with the CCS. The straightest axis will be the strongest. And since many rod blanks have multiple crooks or curves, just sighting down the blank won't always get the job done. But all I have to do is spin the blank in my support stand and determine the highest ERN. This will be the straightest axis every time.

I would welcome more manufacturers to use the CCS. The current three-point action system is too narrow to be of much help. And the current power ratings can't be cross referenced from one maker to another. Sometimes it won't even cross reference within the same maker's offerings. With the CCS we would have ten times the resolution of the current system and all ratings would be transferable between one maker to another.

I use it for all sorts of things, but generally to keep me from wasting money on blanks that aren't in any way suitable for the purpose at hand. I probably have 200 blanks in stock and 150 of them are useless to me. I bought them after studying the manufacturer's specs and taking a guess that they might work. Most didn't, so I turned around and bought more, hoping to hit the right one at some point. I always did, but sometimes it required buying several blanks in order to get the one I was after.

Working with other builders I've found enough of them to have CCS specs on blanks I'm interested in that I can usually find what I want on the first go-around these days. Obviously, if this information were in all the manufacturer's catalogs it would be extremely easy to do.

I recently had some blanks made for me. I knew another guy (Steve Kartalia) who was interested in a couple and he asked for the ERN and AA measurements. He is well versed in the CCS and thus was able to quickly ascertain that these would not work for what he wanted. Too much power for what he was wanting to do. Saved us both some wasted time, money and effort shipping blanks back and forth. Terms like "4-power" or "6-weight" or "fast action" would not have provided sufficient information for Steve to make this call - but with the CCS numbers, he could tell at a glance that these weren't what he was after.

Bill Colby wrote an article that appears in the most recent issue of RodMaker that details how he uses the CCS to establish a baseline for making comparisons when taking orders from customers. Moving them up or down the scale from their current favorite rod he can usually hit the right amount of power or the desired action right out of the gate. It's a great article and details a very intelligent use of the CCS during the custom rod ordering process.

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I use it mostly just for the action ratings. AA. If you use the blank manufacturer ratings you have at best just five points on the scale:

Slow
Medium
Medium-Fast
Fast
Extra Fast

With the Common Cents AA scale I have found super fast taper live bait blanks that pushed the upper 80s reaching almost 90 and older glass trolling blanks that fell into the low 50 degree range. So the AA scale offers at least about forty points on the scale. That is a minimum of six or seven times more resolution than the old slow-fast scale.

It would be more helpful if more manufacturers would use AA in their catalog or website ratings. I think it will happen in time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2009 11:00PM by Peter Sprague.

No better tool for comparing similar design blanks of a similar class.
perfect for that job.

I am able to successfully compare blanks even from different classes and categories. I find that the numbers are still relative regardless of blank or rod category.

I also find that taking the measurements is fun!

I record the length, weight, power and action of every blank that comes through my shop. These are kept in a computer database. When a customer comes in for a quote on a new custom rod, I have him bring the rod he now owns and which is the closest to what he wants in the new rod.

Once you have established a baseline with a current rod it becomes a simple matter to move up or down the scale for length, weight, power or action. Working within my database I can usually pick out the exact blank needed for the request.

Without the CCS this would be almost impossible because only the length and weight are comparable between different manufacturers. The power and action ratings given by the manufacturers are not standardized and will not be comparable across the board. The CCS ratings are standardized and comparable across the board.

The key to your usage is that you have a large "data base." Without a data base for comparison the CCS raises more questions than it answers. It is the data base which allows for useful comparisons.

If you want to know what a set of guides weighs, you have to weigh them. If you want to know what the relative power and action of a blank is, you have to measure it.

Start today- every blank that comes through your shop should be measured. If you know other local rod builders that do or will do the same you should share with them and vice versa. This will allow you to build your own database.

I use it when I want to build something a little different than a known rod I have now. I take those numbers and compare. Like Bill I move up or down the scale from there to get what I want. I usually end up very close on the first go around.

Bill Colby:

Quote from your previous post:

"If you know other local rod builders that do or will do the same you should share with them and vice versa."

I am not local to your area but we are aquaintances from this Internet Forum and I am hoping that will qualify me pertaining to the "If you know". I hope you will choose to post the data on this forum for viewing by the large number of interested rodbuilders viewing this thread and other related threads.

If so, will you please provide examples of CC numbers that may help me with several issues. I am assuming you have the information based upon this thread as well as your previous post on other topics.

Choose any appropriate bass task specific blank/rod that you have cataloged into your data base.

Please post the values for AA and ERN as well as any other significant numberis you feel would be appropriate. If the data applies to a specific technique it would be nice if you were to name the specific use of the rods.:

1. The blank prior to installation of any components including typical length, power, action and lure wt provided by the manufacturer.

2. The completed rod using a guide train of guides using six ring or larger for running guides.

3. The completed rods using a guide train of guides using the smallest guides possible that will perform the task.

I am hoping that you choose to come to the ICRBE next February and present your data base to the attending rodbuilders in a featured seminar session.

Bill Stevens

Mr. Stevens:

There is no reason to make things more difficult than they need to be. If you have a fisherman come to you and tell you he is using a rod that is 6' in length and that he would like to go longer, you would ask him why longer and then determine if another 6" will do the job or if it requires more than that. So you would move UP the length scale to 6'6", or perhaps 7'. It is up to you as the builder to understand what the fisherman is trying to do and move him in the right direction from where he is now.

As far as presenting my database, there is nothing to present. It is a page of numbers. That is all. If a fisherman brings me a rod and says he wants something similar but wants a little faster action and a little more power, I only need to measure his current rod, then go into my database and find those blanks that possess a little higher ERN and little higher AA. The more blanks you catalog the more choices you have and the better able you are to meet his needs. You do not need smoke and mirros and jimbo jumbo marketing talk. You just need measurements on as many blanks as you can get. As the saying goes "The more you know..."

What I would suggest you or anyone else that builds a fair number of rods do is begin building your database and include as many measurements as you can. You should also include the weight of the blank, since this information is rarely given by the manufacturers any more. It is a wasted opportunity for anyone to allow blanks to pass through their hands and not take and record these measurements for future reference.

I had considered asking Tom to provide seminar time at the Expo for me to present my pages of blank measurements. But after careful consideration I feel it would be boring and mundane and would much rather see Mr. Stevens present a seminar on the New, Improved, Super Duper Helluva Looper Swimbait Special Series. Now that's entertainment!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2009 08:11AM by Tom Kirkman.

After using the CCS or any other system for that matter and arriving at the flex (AA), power (ERN), and resonant frequency (CCF) for a rod or blank can those numbers along with the weight provide one with a reasonably good idea as to the type of material used to construct the blank? Taper of course determines the flex or "action" and material also the amount of that material largely determines power and I assume also effects the resonant frequency. Correct? The difference in weight alone will tell one the difference between glass & graphite but would there be enough of a difference in the numbers between high, mid, & low modulas material that one could use to accurately determine the material? Are there other factors I'm not including?
I'm going back to the CCS literature to refresh.

Thanks

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Raymond,

Accurately? Probably not. Somewhat? Maybe.

The material the blank is made from will have nothing to do with power or action, but will have a great deal to do with speed or frequency. Where the material is distributed along the blank will also affect speed or frequency

You might take all the measurements and be able to make an educated guess as to the fiber or modulus involved, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. There are too many other variables involved such as the design of the blank - is it a larger diameter, thin-walled design, or a small diameter, heavy walled design? That sort to of thing can play havoc with the weight figures and lead you to make some bad assumptions about the material the rod is made from. The particular design also greatly affects speed and frequency.

...........

Bill and Bill,

I wouldn't waste a single minute of seminar time on either of those seminars.

..............

Thanks Tom,

Design was the tern that was eluding me.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

When I try to access the CCS data at superbob.org I get this error message "You don't have permission to access /CC.htm on this server". Does anybody else have this problem? Is there another site that has the data?

Stonefly Custom Fly Rods
20 Vaquero Rd
Santa Fe NM 87508

www.stoneflyrods.com