Here is what bothers me concerning guide sizing on a fly rod. Why can you get by with smaller id ceramic guides than with single or double foot snake guides? I mean if you are going to use #2 snake guides the equivalent ceramic would be a 7 or 8 ceramic to give the same opening, yet most builders would suggest size 6 or even smaller would be adequate which have an opening around 4 mm give or take compared to the #2 which would have an opening greater than 5 mm. I am looking for a reason other than smaller ceramics have less mass.

John
God bless the troops and USA

Unless for the traditional look - why use snakes at all. two feet, two wraps more finish more weight, plus they are opened, and line will tend to rub the blank. IMHO
Single foot wire would be better IMHO

Bill - willierods.com

Why use insert guides on fly rods at all ?
For the same size opening insert guides will be heavier.
I've not seen a factory rod with inserts except for strippers and have cast many that cast very well.
Sometimes it's a matter of what can be done, not what should be done.
If an $800 dollar Thomas and Thomas prefers snakes maybe they have the correct answer.

How many people want them just because --it is not a fly rod unless it has snakes.
Companies put on what sells ! Marketing.
For that mater, I have had several St Croix rods with single foot wire on them. Loved them.

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2009 11:48AM by bill boettcher.

Bill,
I see nothing wrong with single foot guides either.
They seem to be a little more abusive on fly lines but use them quite often on rods from 4 thru 8 weight. I do like the reduced weight on the rod tip from the single wrap.
The problem I have is the use of insert guides at the rod tip where weight is of the most concern to me. I've cast several rods with all inserts and all were too slow for my liking.

I have done consulting work for Thomas and Thomas. They prefer ceramics, but cannot afford the cost. I built some saltwater rod prototypes for them a decade and a half ago and their budget for an entire set of guides was something like $3. They loved the Fuji Ti-SIC guides, but the cost blew them away. You can't do ceramics for that. But you can do snake guides for that and for them, this was the bottom line. Remember that an $800 T&T has to be built for less than $100 in order to hit the price point and allow dealer keystoning.

.................

well said Tom.

If Thomas and Thomas had felt it was getting more performance from their rod then the guides were worth they would have found a way to offset the cost of the guides or passed them along to the customer. Knowing the customer would have been immediately impressed with the additional performance they had purchased.
If however the additional performance was worth less then the guides or the performance was detrimental they would have quickly refused and easily remained at the status quo.
Possibly they were being polite.

No, it was a matter of dollars and cents. The consumer rarely realizes the cost of doing business and what the final selling price involves. A fly rod that sells for $500 cannot have a physical cost of more than $75 to $100 if you plan to hit the price point and offer the dealer a keystone (or near keystone) mark up. That was what their upper level graphite rods sold for at that time.

The reasons for staying with snake guides were as follows:

1. They are very inexpensive and come in at or under budget.

2. They work well enough.

3. Fly fishermen expect to see snake guides on a rod.

4. The "lifetime" of a commercially produced rod is considered to be about 3 years.

There is nothing wrong with snake guides. On the upside, they cast just fine and cost very little. The downside is that they can be susceptible to grooving and are noisy (until you fish a rod with ceramics, you don't realize just how noisy they really are as line moves across their surface).

Ceramics, properly sized, add very little additional weight over snakes, but may indeed add some. That would be one downside, along with the far greater cost. The upside is the total package of smoother line pay out while fighting a fish, longer fly line life, no grooving (they can crack if you hit them hard enough) and they are almost totally quiet as line moves across them.

.................

John your point is very valid
I don't use any ceramics or wire guides less than the equivalent ID of a ceramic #8 on a flyrod.
From a purist perspective of the rod dynamics the lighter the guides the better for the casting dynamics , there is the tradition thing with snakes & single foot wire guides.
The primary difference with ceramics is the lower friction under load
the problem with ceramics is the weight & cost Vs wire guides.
Everything in a rod is a compromise of form & function.
for function I use ceramics down to #8 and then single foot wire guides ( of equivalent ID ) to the tip...........that means the last 4 - 5 guides at the tip are single foot wire guides.
The rod carries the ceramics in the mid section very well ( Ti frame Sic ).
The decreased casting performance on a 6 wt is minimal , but performance with a good fish on is better .
Not traditional at all, but is a compromise I am prepared to make between the casting & fishing modes.
On a 9 wt the casting performance difference is negligible, but at the heavier pressure , fishing performance is much better.
The situation with lighter rods than 5-6 wt I cannot comment on as I don't fish them.
I was not happy with the casting performance of ceramics below #8 on the 9 wt & carried the same mix over on the 6wt for weight considerations.( which meant I had one more wire guide than on the 9 wt.)

Thanks Denis
Do you use ceramic tip tops?

No John
conventional fly tip, ceramics are just too heavy for the ID needed.
I use the REC single foot guides & tip .