A number of us are diddling around trying to decipher sizing of guides - some are even messing with letters in the alphabet, like CCS, trying to establish a way to compare blank power and action - and all the while other forms of insanity keep flying by unnoticed. Tom K. in many of his posts makes note the physical measurements like inches, feet and other constants introduce an error free way to compare things. Well guess what! In this craft nothing is sacred even units of linear measure like mm are now variables. Reel seats made in Japan carrying a size of 16 mm are do not have the same internal diameter as a 16 mm reel seat made in China- Wonder how many people carry two rulers - maybe Roger also sells two metric rulers one carrying an A designation that correspond to his Flexcoat 16 mm and Flexcoat 16A mm arbors. At this point the old saying needs to be changed to " It is broke and it sure would be nice if someone had the power to fix it!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2009 04:32PM by Bill Stevens.

But... 16mm is 16mm all the time, everywhere and everyplace. It doesn't vary.

There is nothing you can do about folks mis-sizing their seats or whatever, all you can do is pick a unit of measurement and stick to it.

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Now here's a tidbit on why most guides are sized as they are. Back in the pre-ceramic days, when all guides were simple rings mounted/welded to legs and feet, the ring opening was where the measurement was taken. That was considered the important part of the measurement - the actual opening itself.

The first ceramic guides were nothing more than those same older guides, with shock rings and ceramic rings pressed into them. So, the same size guide suddenly had a much smaller actual opening. But the sizes weren't changed because they were, in fact, the same guides as before.

When the first guides designed to hold ceramic rings were introduced, it would have been nice had they been sized by the actual opening. But instead, they simply used the old measurement of the inside of the frame opening. The difficulty now is that things are so firmly entrench that it would be hard to effect a change. Added to that is the fact that the same frame can often hold a variety of different ceramic rings which means the frame would have to be listed as several different sizes. And none of those sizes is designed to any certain spec. Depending on the ring material, you might have the same frame with a 26.5 size designation, or with a different ring, a 24 size designation. The range of sizes would be utterly confusing and overwhelming.

For this reason, guides continued to be sized per their frame opening - that is the one constant involved in guide manufacturing.

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Your quote:

"For this reason, guides continued to be sized per their frame opening - that is the one constant involved in guide manufacturing."

I am seeking a reasonable solution to this problem primarily to facilitate meaningful communication with other builders.

There is no constant in the manufacturing of guides - each manufacturer has his own set of constants -

Both of the guides manufactured by different manufacturers in the picture are sold as 3.5 mm guides

If it was a constant in the manufacturing process the frame measurement would be identical - it certainly is not -

[www.rodbuilding.org]

The constant is the unit of measurement. As far as where to take that measurement - well... that's certainly the problem.

Until the rings themselves are the same thickness across the board, it is going to be very hard to ever arrive at any measurement that would adequately state the actual opening diameter. You would have to fabricate a different frame for each different ring being offered.


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When a custom builder gets on this board and tells someone he is using ten guides of a certain size unless the receiver of the message fully understands what is going on he can be led completely astray.

Without any sort of industry trade group, or similar, there is no one to standardize how such things are measured.

You could do what we have done with the CCS measurements - compile a living database and allow builders to add their figures and consult the listings.

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Look down the page and read the post "micro guides" by Jerry H. - this post is a classic example of the issue.

Gentlemen,

Isn't it strange that most of the issues we have as rod builders, too numerous to mention so just read the posts, are usually brought upon ourselves by us - -the builders and manufacturers. Remember when Dale Clemmons and Gene Bullard had everything we could ever use for rod building! Man, life was so simple then.

Maybe we could ask the guide manufacturers to add a few more numbers and letters to the guide part numbers!!!! That would be easy!

Just chunkin' a gravel in the pile. Let's just build rods and go fishin!!

Charlie

There ya go.

The proliferation of guide frame and ring colors has been a nightmare for the dealers. Time was, you had perhaps 2 frame styles and 2 colors (black and chrome) and dealers could stock deeply in all available models. Things have changed - in the new Pac Bay Minima guides alone you've got 4 frame styles offered in 5 or 6 frame/ring color combinations. Do the math and you'll see why most dealers can't stock very deeply in guides any more. They would have to carry hundreds of different models just to cover all the colors.

Once upon a time, you got your color combinations with the thread you used to wrap the guides with, not from the color of the guide frames.

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