Assuming the same guide material throughout, on which guide(s) of a fly rod do you usually see the most wear? Will a spey rod wear at the same points?

The tiptop. Not because it handles the most load (it doesn't) but because of 2 main factors: First, the angle of the line at that point is more severe than at any other guide. And secondly, any dirt or debris picked up by the line crosses that point first, where most of it is stripped off and falls back into the water. But the tiptop is the sacrificial link in the guide chain where dirt and debris is concerned.

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For a Spey rod I would say it depends on the type of casting you are doing. I would say the Tip Top as well but the stripper guide sees wear when shooting a lot of line like in Scandi and Skagit casting as compared to a traditional long line.

During casting there is very little friction between the line and the stripping guide due to very little pressure bringing the 2 parts into contact. Wear on the stripping guide due to casting is not generally much of an issue. At least not nearly as much as it is on the tiptop.

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Excessive wear to any guide on a fly rod should be seen as a good thing.

It means that you are getting almost enough fishing time on the river!

AMEN brother!!!!!

One of the modifications I made for dozens of fly rodders over the years was to replace just the tiptop on their new fly rods from the stainless or hard chrome pear to a ceramic. Even the guys who detested ceramic guides on a fly rod would often request that a ceramic tiptop be used. This cut out the one problem area that many of them had.

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I agree with Tom 100%, the tip top is subject to more wear than any of the other guides.

Jason
St. Croix Rods

So why is it that the stripper guides are the only ones that are usually ceramic? Or is it because the strippers are ceramic, they show little wear?

"The tiptop. Not because it handles the most load (it doesn't) but because of 2 main factors: First, the angle of the line at that point is more severe than at any other guide."
To me, it seems like the tip top does handle the most load (during the cast) because of the angle. Isn't the load on the guide equal to the line load times the cosine of the line angle (or something like that)? The more the line bends, the greater the load on the guide.

Friction is a function of the pressure pushing the surfaces into contact with other. There is very little pressure pushing the line against the ring surface on a cast. Thus, friction between the line and the guide ring/s is minimal. Even on the tiptop during a cast.

During a fish fight, however, the maximum load will be on the most powerful part of the blank - where the stripper and subsequent guides are located. These carry most of the load and thus makers often use ceramics on these high load areas to reduce wear. But keep in mind that unless you're that 1 in a 1000 fisherman who catches a fish on nearly every cast, few of us spend enough time with a loaded line on those butt-most guides to ever wear them out.

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Now I am confused. If friction is a function of pressure and there is very little pressure on the tip top on a cast (and therefore very little friction) what is wearing out the tip top?

The greater the angle, the greater the angle, the greater the pressure. But make sure you read my entire statement above - there is a 2nd component there that wears the tiptop.

The line picks up minute dirt and debris. Fly lines are particularly bad about this. So in effect, you have a file working against that tiptop guide. The reason the rest of the guides don't get that same wear, is that the tiptop strips off those minute particles at that point. Next time you're out fishing take a look at the amount of water that peels off and drops back into the lake or stream as it passed over the tiptop.

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I totally agree with Tom about the tip top wearing first and the advantages of changing to a ceramic tip. I use ceramic tips on just about every rod I build for that reason. Interestingly I come from a place where most fly fishers happen to cast from the sandy or muddy shallows of lakes and I've found in such circumstances the second guide most prone to wear is the one just up from the stripper (slightly ahead of the guide down from the tip top). Since a lot of major manufacturers still insist on only using one stripping guide until they hit 6 or 7 weight, that guide on most rods is a chrome steel snake and on well used rods they can get badly grooved by the line being 'shot' full of abrasive material (that's my theory anyway). For that reason I usually use 2 ceramic strippers (except on really short, light stream rods) figuring that by the time the line has got to the third guide it has shed those abrasives and has stopped slapping the guides. It seems to work and I've converted a number of locals to having two ceramic strippers instead of just one, even on 4 and 5 weights. Jim

The angle of the line incident to the tip top will change as load increases. You can see this in action when you conduct your stress test. An ounce or two of load may put a slight bend in the very tip of the rod and you'll see a sharp angle at the tip top and very little angle on the rest of the guides; at this point the tip top is carrying most of the load but it's only a few ounces. Add more load to the line and the blank starts to flex deeper into the rod and the angle at the tip top decreases as the next few guides come into play and their angles increase; the increased load is now being distributed mostly along the tip top and the first first few running guides. As you crank up the load the blank flexes deeper and more guides come into play. As the subsequent guides come into play you'll see the line angle at the tip decrease. At some point you'll likely see that the tip of the blank is pointing directly along the line path with very little line angle; at this point your tip top is carrying enough load to "straighten it out" and additional load is being carried by the subsequent guides. The ability of the blank to flex deeper into the rod as load increases is what allows the subsequent guides to take on load that the thin tip section couldn't handle by itself. If your blank is a broomstick then there will be very little flex and the tip top would carry the load over a wide range of stress. A noodle rod will flex quickly and the load gets distributed more quickly.

During your stress test you create a natural flex to the blank by attaching line to the tip and applying load; this allows the blank to flex over varying loads without the load on the temporarily placed guides affecting this flex. The line passing through the guides has just enough weight on it to keep tension on the line so you can see the line angle at the guides and adjust the guide positions to match the natural flex in the blank. This ensures your guide positions will pick up load as closely as possible to the blanks natural ability to carry it.

As Tom stated, the tip top doesn't carry most of the load but it is the first point of contact for any abrasives picked up by the line.

Tom, your right on the money. Good explanation Mr. Hicks.

cheers
Harold

I just quickly looked at the black large wire tip top on an 8 wt flyrod which has been heavily fished for over 4 years. Yes the black "plating" has been worn off but other than being shiney looks OK. I really did not look at the BLag running guides carefully but maybe I will give a close look this weekend and post if there is anything unusual.

John
God bless the troops and USA