I hope you Guy's can give me some insight on this one. I am having major problems with fish eye when I use Thread Master Varnish. I would consider myself to be well experienced with epoxies as I have been using them since the early nineteen eighties. For three consecutive days now I have tried every trick I know to erdicate any contamination and any source of possible contamination. I have cleaned the work with acetone before I varnish and take every precaution to avoid any contaminent-but I still get fish eye, and high blood presure. I can work with Flex Coat and Classic Coat without any application problems.
I am finding that the TM is going off much quicker than Flex Coat or Cassic, that is to say it is too stiff to apply within 15 minutes and does not level well after this amount of time. Fish eye will occur almost immediatly as the epoxy is applied, and though I am usually able to do something about it by working the varnish over the affected area, the TM is going off too quickly and leaving bad deformation of leveling.
I have been looking to replace Flex Coat and Classic Coat, because they yellow considerably within a month, and I was hoping that the Thread Master would be the solution. I like its clarity, consistancy, wetting ability, bubble free nature and it appears to have much better adhesion than the others.
Is TM particularly sensitive , or am I missing something?

Okay, it's not varnish. It's a 100% solids epoxy.

Now that we've got that out of the way, you may be creating your own contamination problem by your solvent wipe. Never use a solvent wipe as the last step in any surface preparation. I assume you mean that you're wiping the thread with acetone? Don't do that - it's not necessary.

To find where the problem lies requires that you eliminate things step by step. Find the common denominator. If you make up a test stick with 3 wraps and use each of the finishes you mention, do all 3 wraps get fisheyes? If yes, then the ThreadMaster isn't the culprit and you can look further into things like brushes, airborne contaminants, etc. If only the ThreadMaster coated wrap shows fisheyes, then it is in the problem and should be replaced.

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Could it be that your finish is actually the contaminate?
Has that got some sort of silicon into it somewhere?
Are you using surgical syringes to measure you finish out ?
Have you tried just mixing some and pouring a small amount out onto a new piece of tin foil (like that it will definatly prove finish/ mixing is the problem if it still fish eyes if not then its after mixing and eiter in the application or the rod)
One other point... are you using a hair dryeer or such like to "heat and thin" the finish during mixing" if so try without that as it may be someting inside (lubricant or like )is blowing out

Sorry Tom, calling epoxy a varnish is a bad old English habit from days of yore.
Yes Flex coat is fine on the same piece of work as the TM. All three times the Flex coat has been fine, but the TM has not behaved. New mixing foil plates and stirers are used for each new batch mixed. The wipe down is not being done on the thread, as they have already been covered with a previous coat of epoxy. Any wipe down I do with a cleaner is followed with a dry cloth to remove any residues. I use a stainless spatula for application. As for airborne contaminants, there may be as I can not controll the polution in the air of Metro Manila, aqnd there is not an airosol in the house-cooking is done in an outside kithen. Room temperature here today is 34 degrees centigrade at 8pm which is when I mixed the last application.
I'm really hoping that its not a bad batch of TM as it is expensive to ship here from the US, so I'm hoping its me, but the Flex coat is telling me otherwise.

Allen, I use pumps not syringes, and have done for years without any problem. Also the TM is also fish eye-ing on the foil plate. I am mixing 3cc of part "A" and 3cc of part "B" so its unlikely to be unequall amounts, or a mix that is too small. It could be that ther is a contaminent in the bottles of TM. But the TM is in its origional bottles, and the pumps are new.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2009 10:40AM by Earl Hamilton.

Could you have contamination on the foil plate? Could the plate be sprayed with silicone? I also suspect humidity is very high which could be part of the problem.

The only fish eye problem that I have ever had with TM is when I was using it with contaminated thread. My granddaughter was playing with crappie tubes (plastics with release agent) and then played with about 10 or so spools of thread. The thread was contaminated, no problem with the finish.
I use TM a minimum of 3 times a week on new wraps, repairs, all of the thread brands, and over old finish on some repairs. No problem. Your contamination problem is somewhere else. Keep looking
Buzz

Tom, Allen, John, and Buzz. I know it might seem that I am being difficult, but I have spent the last three evenings trying to find what the problem might be, with tests and cleanings, application variations etc, and finally this evening with the third failure on the rod I decided to post this thread as I have run out of reasonable ideas.
The foil plates I use are stored packed in a poly bag, and as I make a new mix, I just take one from the stack. The three I have done with Flex Coat are ok, but the 3 that have TM mixed on them have fish eyed. Humidity is high here, but it is not affecting the Flex Coat if that is what is causing the problem with the TM. The TM was origionaly applied over Flex Coat on a tiger wrap, the subsequent 2 coats were applied over TM. All my threads are stored in a box in a drawer and are not showing any contamination when used with Flex Coat
I understand that TM has been well tried and tested with very good reports, thats why I got it shipped in. I am hoping that someone here will just mention something I have not thought of that will prove to be what my problem is-I'm not blaming the TM, and I will persevere with it because I trust what all of you here have reported, and I want to find an alternative for the Flex Coat because of the yellowing problem here.

PS;Does TM normally cure so quickly, as mentioned above the temp here is 34 degrees centigrade-about average for the time of year here ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2009 12:18PM by Earl Hamilton.

By my calculations you are about 90 deg F. Others can chime in but your pot life is greatly reduced above 75F about 25 Centingrade. Since you do not have flexcoat problems with the same set up it suggests that the TM is finnicky under your conditions. Is it lite build or high build?

Okay, you mentioned that the wraps had been covered with "a previous coat of epoxy." Often, if the cure is far enough along, that first coat or application will actually repel the second, resulting in what looks like fish eyes. Are you getting the fish eyes on the first coat as well, or just the second?

Each epoxy has its own properties. ThreadMaster may indeed set a little quicker than some of the others. If you mix it and then pour it out onto some foil, you can extend the set time by a few minutes. Working in a little cooler room may help too, but the cooler it is the thicker the epoxy will be on the get-go. Too thick and you may find it hard to work with.

I never spend more than about 30 seconds coating a guide wrap. Load the brush, lower it to the wrap, turn the rod 1 or 2 revolutions and then move on to the next and repeat. After all the guides have been coated, it's an easy matter to come back and touch in any dry areas. The main thing is to do the bulk of your application while the epoxy is still very much liquid. Often, folks will spend several minutes on a single guide wrap, brushing and dabbing, poking and prodding, and by the time they get 3 or 4 guides up the rod the epoxy has thickened to the point where it's not easy to apply. This is why it's good finishing practice to get the wraps coated quickly, and then come back and do your fine tuning after they've all been covered.

And some folks just take more time than others and don't wish to change. That's fine too. But it may require that you find an epoxy that has a pot life more suitable to your application technique.

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Fish eyes are on the first, second, and third coat-each coat has about 24 hoursto cure before the next. There may be something in this Tom, but it doesn't explain the fish eyes on the foil though.
I have always mixed in a pot and poured onto foil. I'm not the fastest at applying the epopxy on wraps, but i'm not too slow, and I will usually manage to coat 6-7 guides easily within 15 minutes. This particular case is just a butt wrap on a heavy deep jigging rod. The coats are heavy, and applied with a stainless spatula, all 10" or so in just a few minutes. I quickly ladle the epoxy onto the wrap along an axis and then using the spatula spiral the bead around the length of the even out the coat, after which I then pass the spatula repetedly along the axis of the rod for the whole length of the wrap while the rod is slowly turning. Usually this gives me a very flat and smooth finish. The epoxy is cured on a turner at 3rpm.

If the epoxy in the foil is fish eyeing, then the finger starts to point back at something between, and including, the finish itself or the pieces involved in measuring and mixing it.

Assuming that the same parts and pieces don't create fish eyes with the other epoxies at this same point in time, then it is entirely possible that something is in your ThreadMaster that isn't supposed to be there.

If you are certain that your measuring and mixing pieces are clean, and pouring the finish out on clean foil still results in fish eyes, I'd return the product to the manufacturer for replacement. This sort of thing isn't normal for ThreadMaster nor any of the other epoxies either.

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This is definately not typical of TM. I use the light and like it alot. I had an issue similar to yours and thought it to be the finish. then I tried Aftcoat same result. Then I thought it was the CP same result. After nearly a week of scratching my head I found out it was the batch of syringes I had. Although I had used the same type priot without issue the new ones had something in them that created issues. Whether it was solvent to keep them stril or what I do not know. Changed out syringes and problem gone. As much as I doubt the TM is the culprit I would contact Scott and explain to him your issue. I bet he would do what he can to get things right for you.

What type of measuring devices are you using. If they are some type of medical device. they should not be used, they usually have a silicone coating. Hve you contacted TM about this problem. I would have contacted them first.

Good Wraps Bob

You mention foil plates. What type are you using?

Thanks guys for your time and responses. Unfortunately I cannot return the product as it would cost about $60 to send it back, besides which I am sure that the problem lies somewhere else not in the product itself. For now the only thing that has not been changed are the pumps, although they where cleaned thoroughly, I think that this is where the contaminant must be coming from. I will do a test without the pumps tonight and see. The foil plates are aluminium foil pie dishes, and have never caused me problems before, and the same for the mixing cups, and are not causing problems with the Flex Coat. The pumps are 1CC delivery and used in the general cosmetic/soaps industry, but I get them in bulk from the supplyer before they are used and clean them as a matter of course before using them. once again guys thanks for the input.

The syringes could very well be your problem and are almost sure to contain silicone if they employ rubber plunger tips. However, if you use them with the other epoxies as well, then the same problem should also occur with them.

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Tom I couldn't agree with you more about working fast in applying the finish to the guides. I use a brush equal to the size of the guide wrap and with the 18 rpms of the motor I usually get the guide covered in less then 15 seconds with one revelution that covers the wrap.

One thing puzzels me and has for some time now when I read the posts on the site and that is that I don;t read anything about people FLAMING the finish after it is applied. I have been using a small alcohol lamp for years right after applying the finish to eliminate bubbles and any other imperfections and have always thought it gave me the results I was looking for.

Whats the story about flaming after applying the finish.. Am I too old fashioned and behind the times?

There's nothing wrong with a gentle warming of the finish with an alcohol lamp or cigarette lighter. And I don't think I've ever spoken to an epoxy formulator or supplier that warned against a brief, gentle application of heat precisely for the purposes you mention here.

But most do warn against "torching" the finish - really putting a hot flame to it and "cooking" it. That does indeed change some of the final properties of the product.

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I do often flame bubbles with a cigarette lighter with no adverse reactions.
On my problem, its not the pumps (these are pumps that deliver a 1CC portion per depression of the pump), and worse the Flex Coat started fish eye-ing tonight with the same pumps that have been on it for months, so the problem must be airborn, and that at least makes me happier that the TM is the same and probaly not contaminated in itself. The mixing cups are ok, the foil plates are ok, the coating is not ok over yesterdays ready epoxied work !!!