I am seeking some advice and thoughts regarding placement of guides with respect to the spine of a blank. I have done numerous searches, and the general thinking on the board is that the spine does not matter. In the recent article in Rodmaker, St. Croix said the spine did not matter. Here is the reason for my question.

I recently built a Batson XSB-822.5 (RX-8) blank as a spinning rod. I used the NGC setup, and used Batson 3.0 microguides as the running guides. ( 25, 16, 10, 4.0, 3.0, 3.0, 3.0, 3.0, 3.0). I test cast it, and it seemed OK. My yard is hilly with a lot of trees, and it is hard to get good measurements. It seemed to cast OK, but it was heard to tell. I built the rod, and took it fishing. I was disappointed in the casting distance I was able to get. The best was about 50 feet.

I took the rod to Duck River to seek some advice. One of the guys looked at it and said that the reason it did not cast far was the rod was twisting because the guides were built 90 degrees to the spine. During the cast the guides were perpendicular to the plane of the cast. That made sense, but on the other hand it didn’t.

I stripped the rod of the guides, and started playing with layouts. I swapped the Batson 3.0 for Fuji 4.0’s with little to no difference. I thought that maybe the microguides were the problem, so I taped up the layout recommended by Batson. It has the size 25 guide about 4” closer to the tip and includes 25, 16, 10, 7, 7, 6, 6, 6. The rod still does not cast as well as I expected.
I have read a lot of the posts regarding the spine including Rich Forhans book with his revolver rod layout. The general consensus is that if you are concerned on the spine, you should build as follows:

Spinning – put guides on softside (Inside of curve when rod is tested for spine)
Casting – Put guides on hard side (Outside of curve when rod is tested for spine)
Casting with spiral – Put guides on soft side (Inside of curve when rod is tested for spine)

So, my question is has anyone ever run into this? What are your thoughts?

Regards
Bert Nagy

I can only say what I have personally experienced. I do have a good area to test cast, and have it all marked off in distances. Several years ago, when I first became aware of all the spine controversy, I went out and did my own tests.
I really couldn't find ANY differences in casting distance based on spine orientation.This was before micro guides, but I tried every configuration of spine location I could think of, with no measurable difference. I think I had a large enough sample (number of casts each way) to ensure that any differences in cast to cast where accounted for. At least, they were for my thinking, and I no longer worry about the spine.
There is still some "old thinking" that just won't go away, though.

Are you casting side armed, overhead, 3/4, underhand?

What type/# line are you using?

What weight is your lure?

What size reel?

Lots of factors could impact your distance regardless of spine orientation.

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I personally cant believe that the spine has much to do with casting distance. Do you cast on teh exact same plane every cast, no you dont. IF the spine made teh tremendous difference is distance that some say, then it would be incredibly hard to get consistant cast. Im not saying you think it will make a tremendous difference, but I know people that believe this. Think about this, in distance casting tournements there are several different styles of casting, the off the ground, the pendelum, teh brighton, the hatteras cast, and many others. The casters use the same rods yet most of the casts are made on different planes, or angles. If the spine made such a difference then teh casters would have a rod for each specific style of cast to get teh most of each method. Just my .02

No, the spine isn't your problem. And distance isn't going to be affected even if the rod does twist - turning around a central axis doesn't change anything.

The only difference the spine would make in casting has to do with the load required on any particular axis to fully and easily load the rod. That amount is going to be slightly different on each axis, as the blank will exhibit slightly different power on each axis and therefore the optimum casting load on any given axis is going to be slightly different.

Your blank will only do so much. Are you sure you have the optimum load for the blank's power? Have you tried a heavier, or lighter lure weight? What size and type line are you using? Reel size and type?

I would suggest setting it up per the NGC in the library here. Stick with the #4 choke and running guides for the time being. Then try adjusting the amount of weight you're casting. You may find the blank is too powerful, or too soft, for your purposes. 50 feet isn't very far for a rod that is well matched with the correct casting weight. Even my light power smallmouth river rods will flip a 1/4 ounce lure over 100 feet with ease.

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"I took the rod to Duck River to seek some advice. One of the guys looked at it and said that the reason it did not cast far was the rod was twisting because the guides were built 90 degrees to the spine. During the cast the guides were perpendicular to the plane of the cast. That made sense, but on the other hand it didn’t. "

I do not think that statement makes any sense at all. But to find out all you would have to do is shift the guides around to the spine or where ever you want and try it that way. You can tape the reel on if the seat is already glued in place.

I am working on a rod that has a TN handle so I am free to spin the reel to any axis I want. I tested and got a good guide set up and the guides are not on the spine. So before responding to your post I took the rod back out and spun everything around to the spine, leaving the guides at the same distances but now on the spine and recast a dozen times. Then I moved them opposite the spine and did the same thing. Then I put them on the other side of where I had originally placed them and cast again. I cannot tell any difference in distance or accuracy. I do not think you will either but you can always try it just to satisfy yourself.

The other thing is that almost nobody casts on the same plane each time. In bass fishing, you might go overhead this time, sidearm the next time. So if the spine really made any difference in distance, you would have one cast that would sail a mile and the next would peter out in a few feet. No sir, that statement does not make sense and I would bet if you try it you will see that your problem is with guide sizes or rod loading, not spine.

It is my understanding that few factory built rods are build on the spine. So if spine had any real effect on casting distance, it would seem that hundreds of thousands of rods made each year would also fail to cast decently. I don't think that is the case. As much as we custom builders like to think we build a superior product in many ways, I do not think factory made rods cast poorly. At least not good ones.

One other item about spine. If you check the spine along different sections of a blank it likely will not be along the same line, rather it sort of seems to spiral around as you move along the blank. So, the "spine" you are referring to also would depend on the relative load (curvature) on the rod at any given time. That dynamic varies with weight, casting style, how hard you cast. Also, the strong axis relative to the spine and soft axis are not opposite each other.
Besides, casting is three dimensional, not along a plane. Your shoulder, wrist, elbow, and hand motion are not along a plane either, rather along a curved path. Just some food for thought. . . .

"in distance casting tournements there are several different styles of casting, the off the ground, the pendelum, teh brighton, the hatteras cast, and many others. The casters use the same rods yet most of the casts are made on different planes, or angles. If the spine made such a difference then teh casters would have a rod for each specific style of cast to get teh most of each method."

The characteristics of OTG and high swing (traditional) pendulum rods are at opposite ends of the spectrum. The characteristics of a flat pendulum rod would be close to that of an OTG rod. While the characteristics of an X cast rod would be close to that of a high swing pendulum rod.

Don Becker



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2009 06:54AM by Don Becker.

Thanks for everyones input. I tried the Size 4 set up as Tom suggested, but this time with only only 2 guides (20 and 10) between the choke guide and the butt. Seems to be better than the 25, 16, 10.

Thanks everyone
Bert Nagy

What is the casting weight range your blank is rated for and how much weight are you trying to throw?

I strongly suspect your problem is related to something other than those guide choices.

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Tom,

The blank is 6' 10" and is rated for 6 to 14 lb line throwing 1/8 oz to 5/8 oz.

I have been testing with a Shimano Stradic 2000 with 8 lb test mono with 1/4 oz of weight. We typically us 1/8 oz jigheads with a finesse or 4" ringworm.

Thanks
Bert Nagy

With 8lb line you should easily be able to toss such a rig 75 to 85 feet. Easily.

There is a possibility that the lure weight rating is a tad low and that you're not getting it well loaded with just 1/4 ounce of weight. This sticks in my mind because you're close enough on guide sizes and everything that a maximum of only 50 feet isn't likely to have anything to do with your guide selection.

I wish I could see the rod so that I could tell if anything is obviously wrong.

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Something else to check look at your spinning reel - is the spool filled with line. If not you could be getting be loosing some distance due to friction on the spool edge.

Thank you whoever you are

WWW.WeSeekHerRods.com

Bert,
According to my calculations based on the length, material, butt dia and tip dia.
The rod would perform much better at 3/4 to 1 ounce casting weight.
The specifications may have been a little agressive for use with 1/4 ounce.
Not the first time the published spec wasn't completely correct.
I don't believe the rod is being loaded at 1/4 ounce weight.