I read yesterday on the ask larry dahlberg (hunt for big fish) forum, how he doesnt think the spiral wrap makes any difference unless you "high stick" your rod. I never did get to try or make the demo device. Does it flip easy, or just when "high stick" type of force is applied?

If your definition of "flip" is consistant with mine the answer is yes -

Does a spinning rod flip ??

Bill - willierods.com

Simply put a casting rod is trying to become a spinning rod. Spiral wrap defeats the torque. High stick has nothing to do with it IMO

Thank you whoever you are

WWW.WeSeekHerRods.com

When you're fighting a fish, how often are your guides perpendicular to the line path. For me bass fishing, the answer is almost never. With very few exceptions, I never high stick a fish, this is the only time my guides are pointed at the fish and perpendicular to the line path. I usually have my rod parallel with or pointed at the water. The guides are not pointed at the fish as it would not be comfortable for me to reel with the rod at that angle. Look at the way any big name tournament pro fights a fish and you'll see a similar style. There is no torque reduction with spiraled guides in this position. I believe there are other benefits that justify the spiral wrap, but torque reduction isn't one of them for most bass techniques.

I fish for Striped Bass a LOT (going tonight) using standard bass fishing gear. I've had spiral wrapped rods bent past the reel seat for long periods of time, and that will make you really appreciate the stability of a spiral wrapped rod. You can hold your hand flat under the rod and let the fish move you around, it's that stable. Much more enjoyable with a large fish than any conventional wrapped rod imo.

DR

Just proves that even though a person can hunt for and catch big fish.
They can still be ignorant of the facts involved in building superior custom rods including the advantages of a spiral wrapped rod.

The absolute best test/confirmation to make a non-believer of spiral wraps see the difference is actually let them borrow/use one. That is one of the only ways I have found for the guys that simply do not want to believe it works that well. The person must have an open mind and perceive you as more knowledgeable than them. If those two do not BOTH happen simultaneously, its a lost cause.

The only other way is to have another 3rd party who is not involved with any part of a sale explain that they have or had both styles and what they do/don't like about each.

I think this is one of those times we as builders think we're doing more than we really are, especially where bass rods are concerned.

The spiral wrap is only beneficial when fighting the fish on a very narrow single plan. Twist the rod on slightly either way and you fighting that torque again. DR mentions a perfect example above that benefits from a spiral wrap when he high sticks a striper. Any vertical technique will also benefit, again you're on plane with the guides. I personally high stick bass when I am moving fish up and out of heavy cover, but that's about the only time and isn't very often.

If you want to learn the most efficient way to put a bass in your boat, watch KVD fight a fish. He keeps his rod tip pointed down at the water. You won't see him high stick a fish. The last thing you want to do when fighting a bass is pull it up with a high stick. Some times the cover dictates you must, but it's an easy way to loose a bass.

It's interesting that these are the same points that apply to building on the spine.

Have you tried fighting a 50# class fish on 20# tackle for an hour or more? You WILL without a doubt notice a difference between a rod that is spiraled and one that is not.

In terms of bass, not sure how much or how little it actually makes a difference, but with ultralight tackle and heavier tackle it makes all the world of difference. 10# mahi on 2# test on an ultralight plug rod standard wrapped, then a week later that same fish on a spiraled rod makes you understand.

Sean,
The only time spiral wrapping will make a difference is when the line path is perpendicular to the guides (on the same plane), generally what's thought of us high sticking. This isn't very often when bass fishing if you're using good technique. As I pointed out with DR as an example, there are times when it will make a very noticeable difference. But remember, if your line path isn't on the same plane as your guides, you're not gaining anything. It's simple physics.

Watch a pro bass fisherman, not a TV personality, but a real pro that makes his living off the fish he puts in the boat. It won't take long to realize that a spiral wrapped rod would be of little benefit to him when it comes to reducing torque. There may be other benefits like weight reduction through a reduced number of guides, but the torque benefit isn't there.

Take Care,
Robert

Don't forget either that many of the pros and televsion personalities are linked to major tackle manufacturers through sponsoship deals and paid endorsements - none of whom, to my knowledge, offer a spiral wrapped rod to the fishing public. If a fishing personality is being paid to promote his sponsor's product then he has an obligation to speak as positively as he can about their product and he is not going to sing the praises of a product type his sponsor doesn't offer - at least if he's smart and wants to continue the business relationship. If and when one of the major manufacturers produce and market a spiral wrap for the general fishing public you will likely hear a different presentation from the product pitchmen in the print and electronic media.

I have sold a number of rods by putting a demo in a fisherman's hand and have him actually use it on the water. Almost everyone is initially skeptical and wants to know why the guides are crooked. After you explain the concept and benefits and actually have them "field test" the rod they become easy converts and the selling part is over; all you need to do from that points is agree on the price and other particulars. Eventually the thinking of the manufacturers, marketers, fishing pros and product edorsers will evolve. Custom builders are ahead of the curve in this regard and should make make hay while the sun is shining.

Robert,

I'm the first one to admit I know NOTHING about bass fishing except I catch a few here and there between my saltwater trips. This to me is what I refer to as "playtime". LOL

But there IS indeed benefit whether the rod is exactly perpendicular in a vertical situation or out and away from the boat with the rod around a 45-60degree angle to the sky (as in offshore trolling). Simple physics says that benefit is reduced, but still valid up until the rod is pointed toward the fish at a zero degree angle.

Perceived benefit is a whole other story. I have fought 80# class fish on 20 and 30# test on both spiraled and unspiraled rods. Reduced fatigue is a HUGE factor here for me personally. I also vertical jig for amberjack, and part of the reason I use a spinning outfit is the same reason as using a spiral wrap. Its simply stable. The other reason is I simply cannot get it down with a conventional style reel. As I said previously, I dont do freshwater, nor care to figure it out, but in the big game arena, a spiral wrapped rod makes the fight a whole lot nicer, so much so I have completely done away with gimbals on my personal rods.

I am not a Fresh water Bass fisherman at all never caught one. But I have caught my share of Ling Cod, Sea Bass, Yellow eye Bass, Halibut and Albacore. Now when it come to fresh water I plug fish for salmon and Steelhead. From a bank and also a boat. I forgot to mention I also free drift egg roe. Hey if you ever catch one of these wild babbies on a standard rod you know the the wrest and arms take a beating from rod torque. OH yes the best West coast river fish over all. White Sturgeon. This guy well tie your rod into a knot. All my rods are built on a spiral system. I have been building spiral systems for at least 17 years. the first one was a Roberts Wrap, then a John Britt (Anglers Workshop), Dale Clemens, Tom K's, Ralph OQuinn and a few other systems. One thing is fer sure this system saves your wrests. One fish I left out that well do your arm in, is the fish from @#$%& The renowned Chum (Dog ) Salmon. This is the only fish in the Salmon bread that well attack you and bite you with dog Caine teeth. I now only use spiral wrapped rods, But to each his own. As for Bass fishermen. I do not know any body that fishes Bass except for the guys on TV. Have you watched them bring in a fish (Bass). that poor thing is skiing or water surfing back to the guys from FL or TN. If that doesn't take toll on the wrest and arm muscles, from rod torque nothing else well. Some one mentioned physics. Just take a standard bait casting rod balance it on a stick does the rod automatically want to turn. Now do this with a spiral wrapped rod

Good Wraps Bob

Robert;
Because you have not personally noticed or experienced the benefits of spiral wrapped rods in bass fishing doesn’t mean they are not there.
True the torque may not be as great as when fighting a salt water fish for an hour, but when you multiply catching numerous bass during the course of a the day or days there is much more torque then you realize.

Even when fighting the bass say 20 degrees off plain when the guides are spiral wrapped, those same guides would by 160 degrees off plain on a conventional wrapped rod. Meaning there is 140 degrees less torque when using the spiral wrapped rod.
“It's simple physics”

There are also other advantages to the spiral setups;
When setting the hook using slack line techniques (flipping, pitching, shaky head. Drop shotting. ECT.) with guides on top the blank.
Even if you are not feeling it in your hand, it is torqueing the blank putting unnecessary twisting stress on the blank, and the tip. I have found that I have replaced or realigned many tips over the years that had twisted out of place because of this and don’t remember doing but one spiral wrapped rod and that was on a spinner bait rod that was side armed cast most of the time.

When using braid on flipping/pitching techniques. I have noticed far less trouble with the braid looping up and wrapping around the tip on spirals, do to the tip pointing down allowing the braid to slip back off as opposed to hanging on the tips guides ring when facing up.
Same advantage when dropshotting with floro, or shaking with shaky heads. With the tip down the line does not catch the rod tip when working the baits up and down.

When bass fishing (pretty much all I do) If I am pitching a 1000 times a day with just a tad of torque on each pitch, the combined torque by the end of the day adds up to a lot of fatigue by the time I’m done.
I have found spiral wrapped rods much less tiring over the course of a days use.

As for your comment on KVD, the last time I watched him fishing (Decatur Alabama) he was loosing close to 50% of his fish, which cost him the tournament and is not my idea of “the most efficient way to put a bass in your boat”

I'll leave this to the experts.....but I'll say one thing, you not only dont, but cant, high stick a hot striped bass of any size. You just follow his lead and hang on! :-)

I dont consider a rod bent to the reel seat with a foot of rod tip in the water at times, "high sticking". The only thing I high stick is a dink.

DR

The spiral wrap does reduce strain on the angler (and on the rod) but it isn't a cure for high sticking. A spiral wrapped rod is as apt to break under such bad fighting technique as is a conventionally wrapped rod.

..............

I am a professional engineer and understand the physics of a spiral wrap and could try to explain it but that is moot. Here is my experience. Although I'm sure many anglers have been fatigued by fighting largemouth bass, that has not happened to me. I used to bass fish before school and as soon as I got off of the bus when I got home (in Indiana). Therefore, to me the benefits of a spiral wrapped largemouth bass rod may be hard to detect. After college I moved to Florida and someone took me fishing in the Indian River. In the past 15 years I've probably fished freshwater less than a dozen times. Not to knock it (I used to do it every day) but when I found saltwater I lost interest in freshwater. With that said, I know the following to be a fact. Before I was aware of spiral wrapped rods a fight with an 50 lb Amberjack would wear me out. I would have to take about a 30 minute break and my arms felt like they were going to fall off. I was introduced to a spiral wrapped rod by local rod builder (who is on this forum but I'll let him decide whether or not he would like to be mentioned) and fished it head to head with a similar conventional wrapped rod. A single large AJ (40-50lb) still wore me out on the conventional rod, and I caught 8 in a row (similar size) on the spiral wrapped rod before I decided to go back to grouper/snapper fishing. I'm sure some of it was mental, but I did not feel anywhere near the fatigue with the spiral wrapped rod. I was so impressed that I immediately took a rod building class and began the learning process (with a lot of help from local guys) and replaced ALL of my conventional wrapped bottom fishing/jigging rods with spiral wrapped rods. I often let regulars on the head boats I fish in the middle grounds of the gulf try out my spiral wrapped rods and they are immediately impressed. They go from scoffers to believers during one fight.