I seem to remember not too long ago when Spiral Wrapped rods started to get popular and the many testamonials stating that the Spiral Wrapped rod will cast farther than conventional wrapped rods. Not just as far, but farther. This is typical when something new comes out. I think Bill Colby is correct, you need to understand the "new" thing/proceedure and know its limitations.

The older builders well remember this, remember when graphite rods first hit the market. Those rods were the rage. Then all of a sudden everyone was complaining that they were getting a lot of broken blanks. In reality it was not the blanks fault it broke. The breaks were caused by the user and its application. Plus the builders did not fully understand what it took to design a graphite rod.

Good Wraps Bob

I am on here to learn things and get better at what i do. I have neither the knowledge or time served to get very deep in most of these conversations.
But for me the mircos gave me a little more distance, a lighter rod, with hopefully a little more sensitivity.
Its main purpose when finished was for long nights casting to feeding stripers, bass when i am bored, the extra distance helps, and hopefully not as arm tired.
I never at anytime intended to build one for trolling, jigging, coastal, or live bait. I thought it was obvious that there were a lot of ways it would not work properly.

Plus i kind of like the idea i can go fishing and the people around me can't show up with the same gear.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2009 05:52PM by Jim Creed.

Bill Stevens-

You are either not listening to what I am saying, or you do not understand what I am saying. We should revisit this topic in a year and then I think you will understand my comments better.

Less than one in ten thousand fishermen read any of the M&M topics here on this board. You are fooling yourself if you think fishermen understand the mechanics of what you call "micro guides." That term will be the deathknell of what could have been a good addition to fishing rod components.

Me Colby

If you have truly build 100 micro rods as you so profoundly confess then your comments by your reasoning should be skewed greatly toward the negative. If so, why are you still building them?

My ole' grandaddy once taught me: "Boy, don't bring me a problem if you don't have a solution".

So, what is your solution to the problem that you percieve? Just call them "fishing rods"? Seems a little generic to me.

Bill C. you listed only two choices for my position in this matter - there is a third one you may not have entered your mind.
I totally disagree with your position - I think the proper use of MICRO Guides provides a viable option for increased sales by custom builders who properly use the techniques to the high end market. The Micro Rods are quite unique and there is a tremendous marketing potential - it is now time for Giddy Up and not expect to hear the Death Knell.

You may not understand that I have no desire to explain the mechanics of the MICRO guides to fisherman. The performance of a properly designed rod using the Micro Guides speaks loudly in a positive manner. The term itself will not be a controlling factor - the use will.

I can see that you fellows are either not readiing my posts or refusing to read them carefully enough to understand what I am talking about.

You will not find a more vigorous supporter of using what you call “micro guides” but that term is going to doom them after a brief honeymoon.

When they begin showing up on rods that should not have them, and they will, the fishermen who buy and use those rods are not going to say “the guides on this rod are too small and they do not work well for this type of a rod.” They ARE going to say “I tried the micro guides and they did not work.” And others will hear them and believe that "micro guides do not work."

The solution is to circumvent the problem before it becomes entrenched. When the first #5 and #6 guides appeared a couple decades ago they were the smallest guides on the market and no one called them anything other than "guides." That's why they managed to gain a foot hold. And this is what the #2, - #4 guides should be called..... just plain guides. Otherwise the terminology becomes a generalization which will backfire on itself whenever such guides are used for an application that they are not suited for.

Bill Stevens,

Forget it.....you either refuse to read my posts or I have failed to explain myself very well. You are not in any way talking about the same thing I am. These are two totally different topics.

Mr. Colby-
Of those 100 or so rods you have built using very small guides-how many have been failures by design? I suspect you are a competent builder and I suspect if there have been any failures there have been few. I have not built nearly 100 using them but to date I have a 100% customer satisfaction rating on those I have. My high grades and yours too are for the same reason I bet. Before using them on a build you and I asked the types of questions necessary to determine if they were appropriate for the end use. Anything else is inviting failure. The need to ask those questions has been stated repeatedly in the discussions here on the smaller guides. The most often stated "rule" being use to the smallest guides that will perform the task at hand. The term micro is handy-those who build with them and those who have fished rods using them recognize the term instantly. It just happens to be the term that many have become comfortable with and identify with. For many years all refrigerators were "Frigidairs" regardless of who made them. " A rose by any other name........"

............................ my rod still casts great and performs beyond expectation.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

B.C.- I read you loud and clear. Creating a genre within a genre can be a smart marketing move, but it can also turn around and make it equally easy to have that genre crucified for unfair reasons. I have seen it happen with other products. I hope it will not happen with this one.

Maketing is key!!!
"Micro Guides"
"Gold Zirconium"
"New Guide Concept"
"Acid Rod"
"Sensitivity" (the rod's or the builder's?...things are getting rather heated...)

Fred, I am not surprised. I just gave my Dad the FW spinning rod I built for him for a b'day gift. I could not afford an expensive blank or components, but I kept everything small as I could, and tested rigorously. We went fishing together the other day, and he continuosly raved about his new rod. It cast great, and he caught a bunch of nice-sized fish!

Coke, cola, soda, pop... I find it very difficult to beleive a simple name reference to a product will be it's downfall. Who really cares what it is or what it's called?!?! Does it work? I started using micro guides (no quote marks here, everyone reading this knows what they are) pretty recently and after much of my own fairly crude testing methods realized most of their strengths and weaknesses. The big name commercial rod manufacturers won't embrace them unless they have a distinct following that will make them money. That following will be due to knowledgable custom builders. The product will not fail due to a few un-informed builders using them for the wrong application, that particular builder might fail. They have their place and as far as I'm concerned, they will keep that place unless/until guide manufacturers stop making them. I would encourage anyone thinking about using them to ask questions (Just like I did) about their proper application. People with way more experience than me will help you out and nobody will be left crying. If they were destined to fail then they would have by now. Sorry for the rant but I feel better now.

Steve

As a hobbyist, I think mostly in terms of the benefits...

I use the smallest guides that are *****appropriate*****

I get more rod sensitivity and marginally longer casts.

My rods have become less "top-heavy" (another hard to articulate concept) and have better balance at a lighter weight.

I get more even distribution of load (spinning rods) because I can use more guides with no weight penalty.

I can pack rods into a tube better and pull them out of the tube more easily because smaller guides tend to catch on each other less than larger guides.

For what it's worth,
Rick

The key words - "I use the smallest guides that are *****appropriate***** "

Well said.

Sometimes the appropriate guides will be size 2's, other times the appropriate guides will be size 16's. But that's the crux of guide sizing - always use the appropriate size for what you need the rod to do. It was true 50 years ago and it will be true 50 years from now (provided we have anything left to fish for).

................

off topic, but Ouch isnt that the truth about having anything left to fish for in 50 yrs. I live less than an hour from the sacramento river and used to limit out on salmon in 1/2 days fishing. Too bad that is no more.

As far as this topic, it seems everybody is saying the same thing. If the "micros" are appropriate they are great. If they dont work, its because the rod wasn't built/designed correctly for the intended use. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

I think that was the point some were making - that if they are used incorrectly, the incorrect use of them won't get the blame for the poorly performing rod. The guides themselves will get the blame because of the generalized moniker that has been stuck on them.

But this isn't something anybody can predict with certainty. Only hindsight will prove whether it did or didn't and by that time this will be all water under the bridge.

....................

Well.... I think the possibility of uneducated builders using the guides incorrectly is the best reason that I need to market myself, my rods and the micro guides aggresively to my market. If you can build a following of satisfied anglers they will be able to squash the rumors of a problem. Tournament Bass guys are EXTREMLY opinionated.....AND if you prove to them that an edge can be gained with your rods they become overly loyal to them...it is great. Not to mention....if you give them a free decal.....they will sell their own mother a rod ;-)

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

Scott,

"Not to mention....if you give them a free decal.....they will sell their own mother a rod ;-)" Not necessarily, it depends on whether they are fishing AGAINST their mother, and how much money is at stake. In my neck of the woods....West Virginia (namely the Ohio River)......the Bass Anglers here WILL cut your throut for a 12" fish. THAT's the reason I got out of competitive Bass fishing, they are not willing to share ANY information for fear that it's going to lose them a tournament and MONEY!!! Sorry to hijack the thread guy's but I just had to respond to that comment. I'll leave my soap box and go sit with my nose in the corner now. Oh, 1 more thing, I haven't messed with the smallest guides yet, so I can't comment on them. I only build for kids to get them into fishing so it's a non-issue for me.

Bill in WV