I partially agree that this is a very interesting post. However it is also one of the silliest that I've read in a long time. A multi-million dollar corporation hates custom rodbuilders? And is choosing to walk away from a huge profit just to stick it to us? I'm having a touch of a problem with that. I haven't been a fan of Loomis since Shimano bought them out completely. I found some quality control problems with the few blanks that I did buy so I have steered my customers away from them. But to feel that they are dis'ing us by choosing not to sell as many blank models or any at all? I don't think that decision was driven much by how it would affect the custom rod builder.

I called Batson's a couple of years ago looking for a long, multi-piece surf blank. They didn't carry one and had no plans to start carrying one in the near future. Had I only known then that I should have felt dis'd because they wouldn't make a business decision based on my wishes. I only use them as an example because in my opinion they have the best customer service in the business. I look forward to my Rodmaker magazine greatly and it seems to take forever for the next issue to get here. I would much rather get one twice as often. Yet Tom contnues to dis myself and the rest of you by not doubling his workload and giving us twice the product. In fact the more I think about this, there are a number of people in this business who aren't bending to our whims and wishes. Why are we singling out Loomis? And remember, I haven't been a fan of Loomis for several years. But it certainly hasn't been becasue I think they dis'd me or anyone else by making a business decision.

As far as speaking for me as part of the majority, nobody on this board does that. Especially someone I disagree with so often. I find myself agreeing with Tom on most topics and yet I can't imagine even Tom saying that he speaks for the majority of rodbuilders. As for the loss of Loomis blanks, there are blanks of equal quality (greater in my opinion) for a lot less money, carried by venders with better customer service. Accept this for the business decision that it is and let Loomis sell finished rods or widgets or whatever they want. We're putting too much importance in ourselves thinking that dis'ing us entered into this decision at all.

Jeff Hunter

Tom, your comment about profit makes sense. I believe that Shimano is very much driven by bean counters -not that is at all bad. It's part of their role/function in the organization.

However Matt Davis is also correct in my opinion about 3%. If they were to sell the COMPLETE line of their blanks to the public, there would be no problem i turning a tidy profit. AND their blanks would then be much more than 3% of their total sales.

Mark Griffin's comments about protecting the integrity of their built rod's pricing is also consistent with what I know (MAPs are an example of this application.). Griffin's comments explains how your and Matt's comments are BOTH consistent with Shimano's decision.

I think combined, all three of your comments gives the most complete picture. In short, while Shimano can make a tidy profit on their blanks, I think they believe that the loss suffered in the sales of their completed rods as a result of blank sales exceeds the profit from the blanks. I believe this Macro views explains their decision.

I think this does help remaining blank manufacturers as the need for blanks is growing (evidenced by the stats from your show) and with Loomis out of the way, other manufacturers gets those sales. (I also happen to think that the GLX are truly overpriced even though I have friends who ask for it.)

My question is whether US blank manufacturers will remain viable for years or will the off shore production become so good and cheap that it's impossible to survive. I DEARLY HOPE that the US manufacturers can retain their presence here. It's up to the builders to ensure that.

Mo

Tom said:
Loomis used a very few blanks to make a large number of rods. What you think you weren't able to get, you could get, but not always under the same name or in the same color.

I don't believe this is true especially in the GLX line, because I looked and tried.

Tom also said in another 10 years there won't be any made in USA blanks.

I don't believe this either for the following reason: I talked to a Manufacturer about China built blanks and the economy and was told they (china) were now expierencing some labor problems where the workforce were getting used to higher wages and the companies were having to relocate further away from the indistrial centers where they were able to find (for now) a work force who would take a lower salary. This rod manufacturer was starting to see indications where the cost of importing the blanks was not as an advantage financially as in the past causing them to consider pulling back some of their blank production.

China is losing their rod blank business, but not to the U.S.

I wonder if many custom builders have any idea where the latest large blank production facilities have been constructed.

.............

St. Croix & Axiom just completed a joint venture down south in Mexico.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

I had heard through a major UK rod distributor that they were in fact looking to import from Thailand,as to the truth i am not sure but this came from th MD of a large UK company.
So i would guess the answer to Toms question would be Thailand.


Bryan

Very interesting posts. I'm not a major rod builder, but I've built a few with Loomis blanks and they are terrific rods. Especially the rods from their crankbait blanks. Having said that, I'm sure I can survive without them since there appear still be thousands of blanks out there that are very good. I've recently built on 2 companys' blanks that I'd not used before, and sure enough, those rods are really terrific rods too. If a company isn't providing you with the product or service you expect, you have a vote that really counts. There are at least a half dozen companies active in this forum who make very high quality product, and it appears to me that they are really trying to get you to try their stuff. I just hope that most of the other companies that give us the myriad of products that we enjoy can stay healthy so that we can continue to enjoy our hobbies/businesses in custom rod making. I quite frankly don't know how they do it all.

There is no arguing with Tom's logic regarding the need for businesses to be sustainable, and I for one will do my best to support them any way I can, including not trying to get them to "honor" their warranty when I break a blank in my car door or overheat the tip pulling a tiptop off. For publicly held corporations it would border on the illegal for directors of the company to continue with unprofitable business practices, and for the privately held companies, it is just plain suicide. The businesses either have to find a way to make it profitable, or they have to get out before they go bankrupt. It is very easy to be critical of businesses, but try to run one yourself some time if you think it that easy.

As an aside, I'm not familiar with Shimano rods, but other forums speak highly of them. I know from personal experience that their reels are excellent. One aspect of the rodmaking that we are doing now, designing rods around a specific reel, has led me to look at three new spinning reels in the last year. When comparing price, weight, features, size, line capacity vs. weight, and looking at all the reels available through major sources, I selected Shimanos for all three. They fit the applications better than the others. If I had found others that made better sense, I would have gone that way.

Ray got the answer correct ... Mexico. The joint venture plant is already producing product. Hopefully, the SC3 and higher will stay in the states once production gets going full tilt.


EVERY manufacturer has models that are unmatched by any other in the industry. I am almost positive that G Loomis has the largest collection of those "unique" models. Say what you will ... there will be blanks that simply will NEVER be duplicated.

Until last month I was employed by one of the big box stores in the wholesale division and for nearly 3 months before my departure we were unable to get our hands on ANY Loomis rods due to the lack of supply from the factory. Now then that was also their completed rods not blanks, this particular company does not sell blanks.



I don't know why but Shimano seems to think that everything they touch is gold and in my opinion are very over protective of their reputation. In today's market you can find blanks that rival and even surpass a Loomis at a fraction of the cost. Again that is just my opinion and yes I also agree that Loomis was a driving force in rod design but sadly Gary is no longer with the company.

I wonder if Loomis lack of ROD supply to retailers recently is their effort in trying to get Quality Control back up, if reports of bad wraps and such are accurate. In a different industry, a cutting edge company that I know shut down production for months to revamp their production line in order to get quality higher. Just wondering.

Mo

From what I understand, Gary Loomis is no longer afileated with Shimono, sense last fall

Good Wraps Bob

I simply don't believe a single word about commercial bean counting decisions driving a decision not to market blanks .
There was simply no attempt to improve transaction cost-benefit in their blank business following the takeover of Loomis .
No attempt to identify the price point resistance for the product .
The decision was entirely a marketing decision to produce complete rods & that was that.
Others have gone that route before Shimoomis & more probably will over time.
As for made in USA or made in Australia or made anywhere else it all depends on labour cost
The entire tuna canning industry fled USA shores chasing cheaper labour & the canneries have relocated several times since then as local economies developed and labour costs increased relative to the opportunity cost elsewhere & this will continue in the future until there is no underdeveloped country to move to.
Same thing happening in the clothing industry & faster , because the manufacturing infrastructure in the clothing industry is far less specific & costly than canning tuna or rolling blanks.
Even under Gary Loomis's watch, Loomis shut down its contract Loomis rod building operation in Australia years ago..............for corporate marketting reasons.
Lowrance moved to Mexico for their sounder production a couple of years ago ............for the same reasons & were bought out by Simrad to access the labour cost benefits of that facility .................there was a side benefit in that takeover for anglers as Lowrance electronics have improved with the Simrad design "Broadband" technology...............sometimes these moves are not all bad.

Irrespective of where a product is made...............it is made for a domestic & worldwide market........of which the USA is one of the largest fishing markets.............and transport & warehousing costs are part of the commercial decision in moving to offshore production.
Just-in- time integrated manufacturing & marketing still has economy of scale issues with distribution and a necessary level of warehousing.

Give us all a break about the 3% volume level as a critical manufacturing or marketing break point.
As stated in my previous post ...........many companies would kill for a 3% market volume in their operation.
IF the Shimoomis blank manufacturing facility was capable of the production there are 10 different ways to handle distribution of those blanks in a cost beneficial way for the blank production facility as a standalone cost division..................IF it were not for marketing decisions of the company as a whole................including external contract distribution at no risk to Shimoomis.

My original statement stands....................they do not want to do it for their own reasons.................Get Over It...............thats the way its going to be.
It doesn't matter what spin Shimoomis puts on the decision to do this.............. its their product.
Other product out there.
Start to worry when a single company gets so dominant in the fishing market that they can become a category killer and take out major component suppliers .
Such a marketing strategy would never completely limit custom rodbuilding .............just reduce component choice & increase competitive unit costs of custom builds.
Welcome to the 21st century & world economics...............lots of commercial predators out there.

Just a few points to keep in mind:
1. Not all company decisions are good decisions. (Ford Edsel and New Coke)
2. Any company that bases its economic decision solely on product volumes and ignores their profits will not be around for the long haul. (grocery store loss leaders come to mind)
3. Pillsbury still manages to sell bags of flour (analogous of rod blanks) whiles also selling their pop tarts, biscuits, etc. (analogous of assembled rods).
4. Just because you talk to people in a company doesn't mean that you know the "truth". You only know what you were told and that COULD BE what they want you to repeat .

The answer to that last one depends on how well you know the person you're talking to. Talking to a company president and talking to a friend you've known for 25 years are very different things.

...........

I kind of doubt it Mo. They also were running about 3 months behind on the new "09" Curado and Citica reels also and they were limiting how many a retailer could purchase. The 52 store chain I was employed at was only able to get about 15 to 25 of each a month. My theory is, Shimano is now so big that when the economy started to slow they panicked and brought production and R&D to a stand still on nearly everything they touch in an effort to try and save money.

Or business is SO good that they cannot keep up with demand. If business was bad they would have plenty of product sitting around like the car companies do. The fact that their inventory stays sold out and in great demand tells a different story.

The past year has seen the Ruger LCP pistols virtually impossible to get. But not because there is no demand or the company is hurting for sales. It is because there are so many people wanting them that Ruger cannot fill all the orders. They are also limiting dealers to a certain number of LCPs until they can get caught up and meet the huge demand.

Being out of product is more often a sign of strong sales than it is a sign of poor sales.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2009 10:58AM by Richard Kuhne.

I was really trying to stay quiet on this one, but this is one of the silliest threads I have ever seen Aren't we being a bit pompous to think that a large, succesfull world wide corporation is somehow "dissing" us???? They, and any successful corporate entity make (right or wrong) their decisions, based on what they think is best for the company, not on whether they like a particular group of customers. Although many seem to think that they do, NONE of us are privy to what factors enter into their decisions but I doubt very much that "dissing" anyone enters into the equation. While speaking of "dissing" we should all liook in a mirror. You don't have to look far into this or any other forum (or discussion whenever a couple builders get together) to find that putting down the quality, workmanship and pricing of just about any production rod out there is rampant among the craft (I've never heard the companies putting down custom rods).

I'm not a particulat fan of Loomis (I don't build on them unless someone specifically wants one but it has nothing to do with their quality. Like most companies, they make some great models and some not so great models. My feeling is that there are many alternatives out there that are equal or better at a much better price point.

There are many companies out there that once sold blanks and no longer do, as well as those that never have and never will. There are also companies coming and going every year (think Shikari, ATC GUSA, among others) that built fine blanks and were respected by builders but still went under!!

The biggest threat to builders is NOT rod companies but the predatory parctices of some of the supplier/importers that , while loved by builders, are slowly shrinking/strangling the industry, as well as their own distributers. Think about what will happen when our options are reduced to the point where we have little choice in what we use. Watch prices then!!!!

This is a VERY low profit business and suppliers come and go. We enjoy a wide variety of choices and low prices but this, or any other, industry cannot survive unless fair profits are being made.

We "diss" the companies while at the same time, we are helping to destroy the craft that we love (I'm as guilty as anyone) Our demand for lower pricing has forced many companies into lower pricing and caused many others to close their doors. We sometimes go to great lentghs to save small amounts of money by trrying to find cheaper sources for materials from non rod building vendors to save pennies.

We "dis" companies like Walmart for what they do to local businesses where ever they open but while you're slamming them, think long and hard about the fact that the ONLY reason they succeed is because we shop there!!!

"Corporate Greed" is just "Consumer Greed" on a bigger scale!! In the long term, any company removing their blanks from the market isn't going to hurt the rod building community one bit. Their are just too many choices, BUT, when our choices are eliminated because vendors and manufacturers are being squeezed out of the picture by low or non-existant profits, we will ALL pay the price!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2009 11:50AM by Mike Barkley.

I don’t know that much about Loomis, or Shimano for that matter and my interest in them has not really gone beyond keeping an eye on what they produce for the mass market. I have always felt that these companies will overprice their blanks to protect their off the shelf market and to safeguard the marketing spin that provides the momentum for sales. They are not my favorite companies, but they do a difficult job fairly well in my opinion.
One thing for sure though, Gary Loomis may have shown us the answers we need when he took custom rod building to its apex by designing and manufacturing his own blanks and rods with such enormous success that he built a corporation out of it with global acceptance for the excellence of his product. In a sense, Shimano, St Croix, Lamiglass, Penn and TFO and many other well-known brands have done the same thing, designing and taking to market their own rods. Albeit this has been for a mass market and designs are limited by the economies and scale of their market, but none the less they are doing what perhaps some of the custom rod building businesses could be doing.
As custom rod builders in business, how many of us design our own blanks and get them made. Blanks made to your specifications, built to the criteria you require for the specific purpose of supplying what you feel is the right rod for a particular application for your market. I am sure some of you out there have done that, and even more of us are capable of doing that. Is it not possible for your purpose, to replace or even improve on what was once available through Loomis or any other manufacturer, by getting blanks made to your own design? It may be a tall order, but none the less it is feasible, as I have done it myself in the past. I found blank manufacturers most obliging, and my customer base was delighted and supportive because they could get what they wanted too.
Some of you say that Shimano are living on the reputation that Gary Loomis built for his rods, but are we not doing the same thing when we want Loomis blanks as part of our inventory. In all fairness didn’t Gary Loomis sell his reputation along with the Loomis production to Shimano? Can we as custom rod building businesses not build our reputations based on our own designs for blanks as well as completed rods?
In regards to what happening with Loomis and Shimano, the truth is generally we don’t know much about what is behind their decisions, and there is not much we can do about it. What we can do is find the next genius rod designer that is within us all, but this will only happen when we put our efforts into doing what Gary Loomis did when looking to the future of rod design and manufacture and build on our dreams.
Just some thoughts !!!

Why does everyone think that their stuff is so expensive? I am coming from the fly side but almost every major fly blank manufacturer charges more for their blanks than what that GSX popping blank cost. St Croix's SCV fly models are more and peope like Sage, T&T and Winston are almost double. To me it seems most people that are unhappy with Loomis are looking to protect their own margins by building on somthing less expensive so they can make money based on what the market will bear for that type of rod. I dont have any issue with this but lets be honest with ourselves. Custom rod builders are in the business to make a living just like everyone else.....including giants like Shimano.

I'd like to clarify something Tom said in an earlier post that many are misinterpreting. He said that blanks were less than 3% of their product sales, NOT 3% of the market! This is a huge difference!

As for the speculation that Loomis profits from blank sales and that if they improved quality and service they could justify staying in the blank business, it is just that......PURE SPECULATION!

While rod building is our vocation or avocation, we seem to lose site of the fact that we are a very small part fishing tackle business, and to believe that a corporation makes decisions based upon a dislike for a certain segment of their market is way beyond ludicrous!

A very interesting thread, where in may cases it seems that emotions have over come reason.