We must all not take this so personal. It is just opinions. Loomis is a dieing cow and shimano just wants to know how to cut up the pieces to make the most profit. This doesnt make it right or wrong it is what it is. Everything for the greater dollar. I am just glad I dont need to build rods to survive cos it just wouldnt happen. If Shimano wanted too they could find a way to make blanks profitable. It is just easier to hit delete.........then to figure out and solve a problem. I for one am glad they are leaving cos I found other blanks that meet or exceed the blanks I used to use by Loomis and they are less exspensive. Kinda like buying a Harley for 13 grand. the bikes worth 9 and the rest goes to pay for the Harley Name. Loomis is no different.

Jason Kesckes. Aint no fish'n like bass fish'n

I'm not sure how one can say that Loomis is not making sufficient money from the blank business.

1. They are ALREADY making blanks for their production rod so they can simply take their production blanks and set them aside for sales.
2. They fetch top dollars for their blanks and their profit on the blanks are pretty incredible. (I've snooped around a bit.)

I believe they are not catering to the custom builder market because they don't want to loose sales in completed rods to custom builders. That's my guess as otherwise, the business decision made no sense to me.

Mo

I would like to chime in and say. I use only Lamiglas and Batson blanks. My reason is simple these companies have a great customer service and well help you design a better rod than their factory rods. While I was at the Rodbuilders' get together first of April in Woodland. The rumor floating around was that the Loomis factory was shut down tell some time in June. I was also at Sportsmen's Warehouse in Lacy WA (they are not closing) this past week and ask the man behind the rod counter how they were dealing with Loomis. His comment was to get in the long line and call Shimano. Then he laugh Loomis (Shimano) has even hurt the big box guys

Good Wraps Bob

Loomis can stop selling blanks, that is their right.

I do beleive they dissed rodbuilders. I was mad when they didn't offer their full line up of blanks to builders, you could get some GLX blanks but not others. As Mo said they have to have blanks to make rods, snag one before you start building on it. If we were only 3% they wouldn't be missing that many blanks.

Phil, you can show your respect by bowing before teh King when in my presence.

Shimano is not alone in this approach
Shakespeare ( K2) and All Star is another example.
Part of the marketting issue considered is not really competition from custom builds , but rather the "knock-off " builds where poor quality & failures reflect on the reputation of the original branded product as a perception in the market place.
The list of OEM blank brands that have gone this route is not restricted to Shimoomis or K2.

The argument about cost of maintenance of blank supplies is largely a furphy.
i) the blanks are being made anyway
ii) the blanks are of necessity stocked within the organisation.
iii) there are a bunch of product lines within most organisations that represent a lot less than 3% of total sales.
iv) Many organisations would kill for a 3% margin in sales volume of anything.

The appropriate commercial bean counter approach is minimum orders for blanks that generate the same organisational cost benefit of transaction as minimum orders of other products in the organisation's catalogue, by their dealers & agents.

They don't want to do it...............They just don't want any rods out there that they have not built..................They just don't give a damn about rodbuilders or anglers that want a personalised rod.

Never fear, the personalised rod market will always be the market frontier of the custom rodbuilders..................

Anyway, the composites game has moved past the current crop of Shimoomis blanks and did so a while ago ................they have largely been in a time warp since Gary's departure.................. some fiddling with the flags with the scissors.................but that's not rocket science.......... its just fit & fiddle.

But don't come up with anything that generates a perception of market advantage anywhere in rod building or fishing generally ............Shimano will have a clone the next day. They have done some innovative stuff, but they have a very large predatory streak .
As soon as they perceived any volume in Spirals they put them in their rod lineup in some markets.................Hey.
Wouldn't think micros are too far away.

No, Loomis will no longer have blanks sitting around waiting for use on rods or for sale as blanks. They are moving to "just in time delivery" which precludes them being able to simply go pull some blanks out of a rack and send them to a blank dealer. This new type of manufacturing operation is quite popular in many industries now.

Loomis is not a dying cow - they are quite profitable but the blank program is not. At less than 3% of their total product sales, the resources spent on the blank program can be put to better use elsewhere.

Loomis used a very few blanks to make a large number of rods. What you think you weren't able to get, you could get, but not always under the same name or in the same color. Again, it wasn't profitable to stock all the blanks in all the models and colors. Companies are forced to make decisions that will allow them to meet their overhead and pay their bills. Models that don't sell well or programs that don't show a profit will get the axe.

What Loomis has done and is doing, is exactly what all the other rod blank companies would and will do if and when they find themselves in the same shoes with their blank programs as Loomis has. So remember what's being said here and you can revisit it when your current favorite blank company one day finds themselves in the same position. Loomis isn't the only one headed this way.

.............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2009 08:43AM by Tom Kirkman.

The ultimate "dis" was from All Star, GUSA and Shikari who all left us hanging by quitting blank production altogether. But I do not see the same sort of slurs against them as I do Loomis. Why? If they really cared about custom rod builders they would have stayed in business and continued to make blanks for us would they not? I left out JK Fisher that also dissed the rod builders some years back when they stopped selling blanks. And Daiwa, Berkley and others have always dissed the rod builders by not making their blanks available.

I know Tom Kirkman disses all the Canadian rod builders by not selling and sending Rodmaker subscriptions to them, even though he has stated here many times that he was losing a ton of money on issues he sent out of the US that went missing and that he was continually forced to replace. But that should not matter, a "dis" is a "dis" all the same. Why does Tom hate the Canadians so much? Must be for the same reason that Loomis hates the custom rod builders.

This is a pretty silly discussion among people who I am forced to assume do not own or operate their own businesses. And if they do I am left to wonder what kind of shape they must be in.

The bigger story and one that IS worth discussing is what happens to the warranties on those blanks made by companies that either shut down or drop their blank programs. How does the custom builder address this problem with his customers who may have rods built on blanks that are now no longer warranteed or available? Now there is something of value to talk about!

Just got back from one of the shops I do repairs for and I mentioned that Loomis is no longer going to sell blanks since they carry Loomis rods, their only comment was out of their last order for 20 rods NONE were available, certainly looks like they are in trouble, next it will be Loomis China blanks only way to remain profitable

Tom,
Moving to just in time production in no way precludes Loomis continuing their blank business. They'll do minimum runs of completed rods and the same could be done for blanks. In fact, just in time production makes their blank business even more profitable because they no longer have a substantial investment in inventory of blanks. I also find it hard to believe that the blank business margin isn't equal to their margin in their completed rod business. In fact, I'd bet their margin is a little higher on their blanks due to lower return rates when compared to the same model completed rods.

I have no problem with Loomis discontinuing their blank business. It's a business decision and I'm sure they have valid reasons for doing it.

Has anyone checked out the quality of the Loomis rods lately.I was also at Cabalas last week. The Loomis factory rods were terrible. Poor quality control . Miss aligned guides, gaps in wraps, thread finishes not even. An almost ever rod I looked at these rods had a distinct bend near the top end. To me this is poor quality control at the factory in Woodland. Any where else these rods would have or should have been culled or sold as seconds. I forgot to mention the was hair in some of the finishes. These rods were sold as high end rods. Hey we all know that Shimano builds one of the most competitive reels around. So what happened to their rods?

Good Wraps Bob

Many parts of this situation will involve more names in the coming months, not years, which will take the blank business to another level. All the changes are made for economic reasons pertaining to the production rod business and its success. The custom market just so happens to be a tag-a-long. Certain companies are changing marketing wording for no apparant reason. Why would anyone change the Made in the USA to made in North America? Even the demise of Allstar and Shakari have played an important role in present dealings involving future supply of blanks. Does anyone know the exact date of the expiration of Mr. Gary Loomis's non compete agreement with Shimano? When that date has passed I am hoping that we may learn of new surprises. What will happen when Mexico becomes a threat to China? Times are changing right in front of our faces and the smart ones will adapt in order to find the highest quality products available at reasonable prices.

The warranty issues brought up by others may end up as a legal issue. If a company dissolves you have no recourse to recovery of a warranty because they are gone. When you purchase a blank or fishing rod you pay up front for the "historical known failure rate" for a particular product. Prices not only include the cost of manufacture but also the other associated costs of which warranty replacement costs are at the top of the list. In effect, when you purchase a blank the manufacturer is "holding in escrow" your funds in anticipation of being forced to replace the product at a future date. Accounting records exist in all companies that identify and quantify the associated warranty costs. The high prices of some of the blanks available to custom builders is an almost tell tale on the failure rate - If Gloomis intends to stay in the business of selling production rods and not blanks a smart lawyer may have an opportunity to knock on their door representing custom builders in a class action filing for recovery of escrowed funds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2009 10:54AM by Bill Stevens.

If it was profitable for them to maintain their blank program, they would do it.

The margin on the individual part isn't really what's important here - it's the percentage of the total business and the resources that must be allocated to each part. For most rod and blank companies, 3% has historically been the point when blank programs are dropped. Fenwick did it when they were acquired by a larger company that saw blank sales as too small a percentage of the overall picture to continue with it. All Star did the same thing recently. And many others have done the same thing. Loomis isn't the first rod and blank company to make such a decision.

The influx of foreign made blanks and components have had a drastic effect on U.S. blank manufacturers. We decry their demise all the while buying foreign made rod building goods. Just as the mom and pop stores closed when the American consumer flocked to Wal-Mart for lower prices, U.S. manufacturers of blanks are facing the same situation. It's been some years since most of the U.S. manufacturers of reel seats and guides passed into history and the U.S. blank market is heading the same way. Rod builders have made their decision and price is their #1 consideration. Thus, foreign made blanks are the choice and U.S. blank makers are faced with going out of business or concentrating on that aspect of their business that remains largely profitable. They're not dissing anyone - they're trying to stay competitive and profitable. My guess is that within another 10 years there won't be any rod blanks made in the U.S.


...............

Richard,

You make a tongue-in-cheek remark about my hatred of the Canadian custom rod builders. But it's a good analogy. It costs me roughly $150 to mail a single copy of RodMaker to Canada and that assumes that the parcel actually does get delivered. If it's lost, we can double that figure to include a replacement. A person who isn't in this business would never understand how it could cost that much - those who are in this business know exactly what I'm talking about.

..............

The gist of what I am getting from many here is that Loomis IS making a good profit selling blanks but they hate custom rod builders so they are going to stop offering blanks and therefore withhold something we want just to PO the rod builders. I'm sorry guys but that just doesn't add up or make good sense any way you want to spin it.

I've been reading and enjoying this thread...

I told myself I wasn't going to comment but there is one thing that I've read that just keeping sticking with me...and actually annoying me...

The comment about 3% of sales for Loomis.

In my real job I cost out multi million dollar projects/programs. The customers I work with include Steelcase, Herman Miller, Target, Best Buy, Winnebago, etc... I work with companies like this on a daily basis and not only do I have to price out projects/programs, for the top tier of these customers I have to justify my costs to them by breaking my prices out showing materials, labor, SG&A, over head, etc.

In today’s painful economy for someone to say they are just going to walk away from 3% of their business, and business that requires no extra tooling, labor, or production space is absolutely ludicrous. Every single one of my customers would jump at the opportunity to gain 3% growth for next to no effort. And if some effort were applied the potential would be even greater. And there is no way they'd accept a 3% loss.

Loomis would actually have the opportunity to GROW their blank business if they actually put anything into it. Like offering all of their models of blanks. If the Jig & Worm series blanks would have been available my Loomis business would have significantly increased last year. I actually had customers buy brand new Jig & Worm rods and had me totally strip them and rebuild them. 5 times as many customers couldn't justify the cost of that but would have gotten a rod if the blank was available. And I know I'm not the only builder that experienced that.

So...this statement about walking away from business because of low volume is an absolute joke. Loomis may be able to blow that smoke up your behind...but not mine! Gimme a break.



..........................................

Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

I must say that this is one of the most interesting internet threads I have ever read. Thank you all for voicing your opinion. How lucky we are to live in place where free speach is not only allowed but encouraged. With that said......I must but one lucky SOB. The blank I received is immaculate. It is dead straight. Better than any of the Winston blanks I have seen and out of all of the blanks I have built on I am most pleased with their performance on the water. When looking at the butt end the thickness of the walls is perfectly uniform. I can se a noticeble taper that is exactly where I would want it to be. I will admit that I do not do this for profit. I am just a guy who has loved to fish more than anything in the world since I was 5 years old. As I got older I chose to expand my involvement to include fly tying and ultimately rod building. There is nothing more satisfying than landing a big fish on a rod you built yourself. Ok, maybe it is more satisfying to see a friend or family member do it with a rod you made for them. My best so far is a 25" Rainbow on a 2wt with 6x tippet. So anyway, back to the topic at hand. Thank you for taking a post I made as a quick (and pleasant) response to opening my package from Mudhole and turning it into such an interesting discussion.

The local Loomis rep. told me years ago that they were going to stop selling the blanks used in their production rods to Builders to protect the pricing integrity of their built rods. They would however offer “comparable” blanks to Builders with a finish that was obviously different than their factory rods, allowing builders to still offer Loomis, while at the same time protecting the margins on their factory rods. Last year the same rep told me that duplicate inventories just to support the Custom Rod market was a losing proposition and that he doubted the blank program would continue.

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

If the Loomis blank program was profitable they'd keep it. It's a simple as that. Otherwise the only other reason for them dropping it would be because they don't like custom rod builders and thus have decided to stick it to us by dropping the progam - just a way to spite the rod building craft. As Ken said above, that's simply not reasonable.

I know the people who run Loomis, along with the guys who run most of the other rod and blank companies. I know why Loomis is dropping the blank program. Mark stated it very well in his post just before this one of mine. The current market for Loomis blanks against the bigger financial picture there no longer justifies Shimano keeping it up and going.

....................

Last fall, before I started to make my own rods, I purchased a Loomis rod. I just pulled it out & gave it a close inspection. "If I knew then what I know now", I should have saved the $215.00. The guides are pretty well aligned, but the wraps are much worse than my very first "practice" rod. If I (a pure beginner) couldn't do better than this particular rod, I should stop building rods!! I only wish that last fall I had the knowledge I have gained from reading Rodbuilder, watching this forum & attending the ICRBE-09. Only good thing I could say about the Loomis rod, is it fishes good. Maybe that is all I should be worried about.

We need to be careful and not get caught in ganging up on the production guys - what would happen if Shimano decided to gang up on custom builders and contact Shakespere to find out how they pulled Allstar blanks and continued to sell Allstar rods without catching all the flack from custom builders? The Loomis affair is not the first ride on the merry go round and will certainly not be the last. There was a line on an old radio program that said "Only The Shadow Knows" - in this business the Shadow is well hidden!