Folks, this is my first post. I am into a "hat floater hole" as I'm building my first DH Steelhead Rod from a 1308/9-4 Graphite blank. I have the handle completed and finished. I have all the guides either taped or semi wrapped along the other 3 sections. Before I finish any of the guides I want to run the rod through Dr. Bill's CCS to determine the rod's ERN, Action Angle, and other info that will lead me to determine the best ELN. I have studied Dr. Bill's CCS work that I downloaded some months ago from his Web Site. All that said, today I attempted to determine the ERN and the Action Angle. Many questions come to surface. I have the 4X8 sheet of 1/4" peg board mounted plumb. I have rigged up a 12" pc of schedule 40 PVC tubing to hold and level the first foot of the blank outside the fore cork. I used a tiny paperclip opened up to attach small plastic bags of post '96 US pennies. I taped a( cut off from the head) 7" length of .032" dia molding ejector pin to be my AA indicator. This blank/rod is supposed to be a moderate fast action and in the weight range of 8/9. Now I started off putting a bag of 30 pennies on the tip's paperclip, followed by a bag of 20 pennies...boom deflection waaaaaaay beyond the 1/3 length or 52" mark. Something I'm doing wrong as this rod cannot be this soft??? Should I support the rod anywhere between the handle in the PVC and the 1/3 length mark? I just cannot accept this rod being as it appears to be a noodle? Any help will be greatly appreciated. This is my first attempt at actually using the CCS. Many thanks for your counsel. Stiver

The CC ststem is just a way to quantify the power and action angle of a blank, it is not a grading system. The DH crowd has had a cow over the system since day one.

You have to expect that sort of deflection unless you have a blank like the Sage TCR. Remember, these rods are designed to flex into the cork. Especially if you bot a traditional spey blank.
Herb

"I just measured a board and the tape measure says it's 30 inches long - but it can't be that short!" Well, it is what it is.

Regardless of what the blank is supposed to be, it is what it is. The CCS system can't be fooled any more than a tape measure can. It measures what it measures and it will be correct. Impossible to be anything else.

Remember, the terms "moderate-fast" and 8/9 power are not quantifiable - they're purely subjective. There is no standard nor scale behind them.

Now, use enough pennies to deflect the rod downward a distance that is equal to an amount that is 1/3rd of its length. There is no reason to deflect it further than that. Why would you want to? The measurements are all taken at that amount of deflection, no more. The numbers you get at that point represent the relative power and action. That's all there is to it.

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And remember, the ERN is a power rating, not a line rating. This is something the "DH crowd" just can't seem to grasp.

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The "DH Crowd" fully grasps the use of the CC system to aide in determining ratio of power and flex of our tools.

There is no better means by which to determine the grain carrying capability or grain window of these rods <> Nor is there a better way to determine flex then with a system similar to CC.

... We do not use it to determine line numbers, nor do we need to as line numbers are incidental.

A line manufacturer rated number for two handed fly rods will often have very little credible relevance as it is not a constant measurable bencmark.

With two handed fly lines: What is measurable and constant is the actual grain distribution within the length of the head or belly.

To determine this <> It's best to use a simple digital grain scale, a tape measure and if the angler build their own lines; a digital Mic.

With two handed fly rod blanks: What is measurable and constant is the power and flex of the blank used to deliver this grain distribution.

To determine this <> It's best to use a system similar to CC.

To acheive a correct rod/line marrige of two handed rods it is of the greatest value to know the grain window or grain carrying capability of the blank.

If this is known; then it is simply a matter of marrying the correct line grain to the rod ... And choosing the line taper to best meet fishing conditions.

Flex and speed of recovery is certainly very important in multi-tasking delivery techniques and diversifying line systems with the two handed fly rod, but is often more of a desired angler choice then a functional issue.

This generally true of all fly rods.

Two handed fly anglers have a strong appreciation of knowing the blanks grain window, as knowing this truly aides in correct rod/line marriages.

It is in fact the only way to do so correctly and accurately.

We have been posting grain windows on our own two handed rod blanks for nearly ten years, and we are now seeing major two handed rod manufacturers following suite, and doing this as well.

Tom Stiver <> What blank are you building on ?

Bob Meiser

Bob: The Blank I am building on is a Batson Forecast DH 1308/9-4. This is my first go at building a DH rod. I do appreciate all the counsel as I need it badly in my first attempt to put this CCS to practical use. Thanks much and please keep it coming.

Bob,

My comment was in response to Spencer's above. Only the Dh guys that don't understand the CCS measurements have had a "cow" over it. I should have worded that a bit better.

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Tom,

I think you are speaking of the Forecast F1308/9-4 Dark Blue ?

If so ...

This is a classic tip action rod: Soft tip <> Stiff butt ... Fast <> Nearly Extra Fast speed of recovery.

It is a fine rod within it's perameters: A full-on shooting head rod suitable for all game fish from 10 to 40+ pounds.

It is a challanging rod to cast with longer bellied Classic spey lines.

We would grain window this rod as 600 to 850+ grains.

It's flex is somewhat typical of Scandi rod tapers, but is definitly not an 8/9 wt rod.

It is a VERY serious two handed 9/11 wt rod.

For two handed Scandi shooting heads:

To load it effictlvely will require 600+ grains of either floating or full sink Scandi shooting heads.

Scandi head length for this rod (at 13'0") would be +- 32' to 35'

Best to use Poly Leaders under 15' ... 10' to 12' would be best and the rod will manage all sink rate Poly Leaders to 100 grains.

For Skagit shooting heads:

It will load effictively with Skagit heads in the range of +650 grains and manage tips to + 200 grains, from 10' to 15' of tip length.

I'd suggest a Compact Skagit with a head length of under 27'

Reel weight of 9 oz to 11 oz empty will balance the rod.

... So one running line on a single spool, two shooting heads and a set of Poly Leaders/sink tips will cover most all bases with this rod.

Bob Meiser

I so much appreciate all the comments, and Bob Meiser, I KNOW you are a world renowned authority in the Spey Rod and its functions and make up. Yes, Bob, the Blank is the dark blue. I obviously, am in Sesame Street 101 in Spey rod build. I see now one of my misgivings was expecting the ERN results to at least come closer to the DH sized 8 or 9 line weights than it did. That blew me away. Now back to the issues. Certainly not all DH blanks load into the cork as I presently have 3 that do not. Its my understanding(maybe I'm wrong again??)that the traditional European Spey rods are/were much softer action; thus, most did load way down into the butt. When I think of fast action, I think of a very powerful, stiff butt and fairly stiff mid section. Yes, I have a lot to learn. I must confess that that I am very fussy and pay way too much attention to small details and easily get sidetracked from the main objective. Please bear with me as I try to develop a better understanding of the Spey Rod Parameters( and using this CCS) and how to measure them and make them practical. Many thanks again for your input-all of you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2009 02:39PM by Thomas E. Stiver.

ERN doesn't necessarily correlate to line number. It's a power rating. One mistake people make is expecting, or trying, to make the ERN give the reading they think it should. Just take the measurement and record the number. Use that to compare to other rods.

The thing you can be sure of is that the ERN works - a rod with an ERN of say, 7, will be more powerful than one with an ERN of 6, and less powerful than one with an ERN of 8. You can count on that even across the board between blanks and rods from different manufacturers. You cannot, however, count on that being the case with the line numbers printed on the rods by the makers. One company's 8-weight rod may not be nearly as powerful as another company's 7-weight rod.

I think something that throws people is the equation that was intended to be useful in helping people match a line to a rod (average caster, average distance, etc.) ERN=ELN. But remember, this is simply a way to use the ERN. For me, ERN-1 = ELN. For you it might be something else, but it's not hard to discover what will suit you.

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I have egg on my face. I must confess that I mixed up some of the previous ways I checked guide placement with this CCS. I know I did it wrong and I think I have it now squared away what I should have done initially, please advise. What I originally did was to mark on my rod the 1/3 length mark and then put pennies in the bag until that mark deflected 1/2" below its horizontal. What I think I should have done is used the distance up from the floor(65") to the centerline of the horizontal rod and added pennies until I deflected the rod tip 52" from the horizontal to above the floor or the difference between the horizontal level minus the 52" deflection leaving the distance to the floor from the deflected tip at 13" to establish the correct measurement? Do I read it correctly, now? Sorry to be so dense; however, this is really plowing new ground for me. Thanks again.

Tom S,

In truth <> I'm only an angler just like you.

There are only fly rods <> And fly rods are either single handed or two handed.

All flex and power criteria are the same for either.

The terms Traditional, European ... (and especially) the term Spey Rod itself are really not definitive terms <> They are trade terms that have become generic.

Many UK anglers are quite amused by the term "Spey rod" as their River Dee rods and River Tay rods feel a little lonesome ... };^) ... !!!

Bob Meiser

Tom,

The amount to deflect the rod for the measurements is an amount equal to 1/3rd of its length. For instance, on a 12' rod, you would want to add weight until the tip has deflected 48 inches. Make sense?

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Well, I am getting an education here that I likely could never get anywhere else. I sincerely appreciate the advice. I will forget the Spey rod term and begin to use just the "DH Rod." I am aware that so much of the verbiage tossed around to describe fly rods and all other rods as to their functions and properties is very subjective at best and one is not able to nail much of it down with certainty. That has frustrated me very much over the years. Now, with this CCS I see a door opened to arrive at real numbers as they relate to the rods. Tom, yes, I see the deflection issue and you have clarified it for me. It makes a world of difference from what I was doing. Many thanks for ALL your guidance. I am so glad one of my buddies pointed me to this site and forum several months ago as I have gained a wealth of good solid information from the many posts and answers so possibly one of these days I can graduate from kindergarten in rod building.

Tom K,

One udder thing ... We're on the same page with the cow stuff <> No worries ... };^) ... !!!