I've got RM Volume 10 #4 in front of me. I've been to the library. I've done the search (all dates) and am still puzzled.

7ft spinning rod - lite saltwater
total length from spool face to tip = 173cm
spool Diameter is 51mm x 27 = 1377 mm or 137.7cm (3000 series reel)
This puts the choker guide almost at the tip with ZERO room for running guides?
7 foot rod typically has 7 or 8 guides plus tip?
Using the "no less than 2 and no more than 4 guides" rule, that would still only give me 3 plus tip or 5 plus tip?

What am I missing?

I've been following the thread a few down from this one and I think I am in the same boat. Would it be ok to have NO running guides?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2009 09:42PM by Jesster Brindisi.

No offense but that's why I still use the table edge method.

Just do what it says and go with it.

With your handle length, you're working with a short effective length, just 68 inches according to your measurements. So you'll have about 13 or 14 inches between the choker and the tiptop. That will leave room, and probably require, 2 running guides.

Everything seems fine. You'll most likely end up with about 3 butt/transition guides, then the choker and 2 running guides for a total of 6. With a shorter handle, you would most likely wind up with 7.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2009 09:50PM by Tom Kirkman.

The 35cm between the choker and tip will need at least 2 guides to fill that distance, plus the choker, add 4 transition guides that will give you 7 total guides. That should work

Nothing wrong with the table edge method, but it's completely haphazard. It would put the choker guide for 2 reels of the same size, but from different companies, in completely different locations. It often locates the choker guide past the tiptop (one of the primary complaints of that method).

Again, using the spool upsweep to locate the choker guide is okay, but far too random to ever be precise.

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That was my problem and complaint with the spool angle and table edge intersect. On some of my rods it showed the choke guide to be positioned a foot PAST the tip!! NO way to do that.

It was a common complaint due to there being so much variance in spool upsweep angles (some reels have none). Even on longer rods it sometimes put the choker, or intersect guide, past the tiptop.

It was due to those type complaints that I got out all my templates and data and arrived at an average (taken from a very narrow range to begin with) from which to form a factor based on reel spool diameter. With the 27X method it would be rare to have the choker guide located past the tip, unless you're using an extremely large reel on an unusually short rod. It just plain works better and will put the choker guide on or within an inch of the optimum location in the vast majority of cases.

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Tom,

Out here in Asia, many of our spin jigging rods are max 5'3" and we use very large reels (Shimano 20K or Daiwa 6500). We can't use the NGC nor the 27X. Guide sizes will normally be 40, 25, 16, 12, 12 and tip 12. Such rods are around the PE 8 to 10 range, jig weight around 500 gm, and are very parabolic. I can't think of any system to use except do the static test and place the guides as best as you can. Any advise you can give us?

Anthony Lee

Tom:

What about the larger spool smaller reels. Like the US reels & some of the new Diawa like the new Coastal spinning reel (which by the way is a great reel for the money). They use the wide spool which from my use means longer casts. Using the 27x method the choker guide is almost at the tip on a 6 1/2 foot rod. The US reel has a spool diameter of 2.29 inches which means the choker would be at 61.83 inches from the face of the spool . With the real seat at 11.5 inches from the butt the choker is almost at the tip. When I use the old method with the table edge the choker guide ends up about 47 inches from the reel spool. The rod cast great with the choker guide at 47 inches. I guess that why we need to experiment when one method looks out of place.

Mike,

So be it. The distance to optimumly choke or bring the line under control has to do with the size of the coils that leave the reel, which is dependent on the diameter of the spool. This is why I used the spool diameter in determining the factor. (Line size also plays a role, but I assume that most will use a reasonable size line on the reel at hand.) If you have a reel with a larger diameter spool, the choker guide should fall farther from the reel than if you have a reel with a smaller diameter spool.

You say that if you use the "old" method you end up with a choker guide at 47 inches. Not exactly - that's just with one particular reel. That's why the old system is flawed. Choose a different reel and your intersect point of 47 inches may turn into 67 inches, or something else. Give it some thought - why would you have 2 reels with identical spool diameters having different choker guide locations? Obviously, there is one optimum location for any spool diameter and line size, but you won't get that with the method of using the spool upsweep to locate it. It's random at best.


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Anthony,

You're working in that outside the norm realm that I've spoken of before. You're in a specialty situation and will have to use a specialty guide set up to do what you want to do most effectively. Trial and error is going to be your best bet when using very large reels on very short rods. Fortunately, You'll only have a few guides on the rod so testing is simple and quick.

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“Obviously, there is one optimum location for any spool diameter and line size,”

That is the difficulty in working with reels like the US Reel and a few others, they have a spool diameter of a large surf reel on a small reel casting 4-6lb mono.

Tom, based on your:

"It was due to those type complaints that I got out all my templates and data and arrived at an average (taken from a very narrow range to begin with) from which to form a factor based on reel spool diameter"


what method did you use to originally develope all of your emplates and data?

Thank you Tom. My consolation is that such rods are never used for casting.

Anthony Lee

Tim,

Trial and error, until each rod and reel cast as well as it possibly could. Over a decade, I ended up with records from over 100 spinning outfits. I had long wanted to figure out a better way to locate the choker guide rather than something as random as the spool upsweep, which varies from reel to reel and manufacturer to manufacturer. It is the spool diameter, and line size/type used, that determine where the choker guide location should be.

I can't know what line size someone is going to use, but I do know the range that is generally considered the norm for most size spinning reels. So I went with spool diameter alone. Taking the records of those more than 100 outfits, I began taking a look at where the optimum choker guide location fell. In nearly all cases, it was at a distance that was from 26X to 28.5X from the face of the reel spool. Continuing, I weeded out the highest and lowest and averaged the rest and found 27X. From there, I took a few blanks and some reels that I felt were at the limit of either end of what would be considered a good match for the rods, and with widely varying degrees of spool upsweep, and spent some time using the 27X factor for locating the choker guide. I continued the trial and error process to get the best distance. Even taking the time to tweak each one, I don't think I ever needed to move the choker more than an inch in either direction and even then, rarely did I gain enough increase to practically measure it on a consistent basis.

You can put your choker guide where ever you want, by any method you want. Almost anything will work to some degree. But for those looking for a quick and easy way to get right in the ballpark on the first go around, the 27X factor will get you there.

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Mike,

You can still use the 27X factor to get a good choker guide location. If you know for a fact that you'll only be using very small diameter line, or braid, you should be all means try moving the choker guide a little closer and seeing if you gain anything. You're not locked in - you can try anything you want. As I've said many times, this method provides optimum choker guide location for what we would consider normal spinning reel spool diameter and associated line size. There will always be situations that fall outside the norm and when that occurs good custom rod builders will take the initiative to adjust accordingly.


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The first time I ran into this situation, I too had troubles getting my head around it. But what helped me is actually in the article.

It mentions in the NGC article that in circumstances where you're using a large spinning reel with a short rod, the 27 method may put you at or near the tip top. The example given in the article was tuna jigging rods, where huge spinning reels are attached to short, stout rods.

I was OK with that, but the little 7-foot pier rod I was building was about as much like a tuna rod as I'm like Pam Anderson. Or so I thought, until I realized that any time you're using a big reel with a wide spool, you're in the same boat (har!) as the tuna guys. Think of this another way: if you're using a 6 1/2 foot light freshwater rod with a tiny spinning reel, the NGC is going to make sense, putting the choker pretty far away from the top. But take a saltwater rod the same length, say a redfish boat rod, and attach a much larger spinning reel (which you're going to need for salty species like redfish, striper, and blues), and now your choke point is much farther away, probably near or even past the tip top. Suddenly, you're in tuna town: a big reel on a short rod.

So don't worry about it too much: just follow the method, and you'll be OK. Once you've finished and fished the rod, you'll realize that the method works, even when the placement the NGC gives you seems, at first glance, to make little sense. When I face this situation now, I don't even give it a second glance, because I've learned that the NGC works here too.

Tom,

I think you answered this by implication, but I wanted to be sure. The 27x distance (calculated from spool diameter):

1. Uses the top section of the spool and represents the maximum diameter of the top face?

2. Is the distance from the top spool face to its itersection with the rod?

OR

Is the distance added along the length of the rodf starting at the rod point corresponding to the spool face?


Thanks for sharing this information,
Rick

Chris pretty much said it - the 27X factor puts the choker guide where it needs to be. Forget what you think it should look like - the length of the rod has nothing to do with anything. Some builders are trying to put the choker guide where they think it looks good based on rod length. The length of the rod has nothing to do with how the line comes off the reel. The 27X factor is based on spool diameter and normal associated line size, the very factors that should and do determine good choker guide location. Try it according the article and you'll find that it works very well.

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Richard,

The spool is measured across the face of the forward lip. That measurement, multiplied by 27, is then measured from the face of the reel spool and the choker guide (which is also the first running guide) is placed there. Don't measure that distance diagonally from the top of the spool - just measure along the length of the rod starting at the point that corresponds to the face of the spool.

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Thank you, Tom.

This forum amazes me with its thoughful topics and responsive, helpful participants.

Best to all,
Rick

Tom, great thread.

Anyone care to conjecture if the 27X can be shorter with 2 and 4 lbs line and a normal spool diameter? (i.e. 1.6" diameter) How much shorter?

Thanks,
Mo

27X is based on normal spool diameter and appropriate lines.

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