Not having RodMaker 10 #4 I am trying to figure out how the formula works for determining placement of the first guide based on the "27x the spool diameter". Is it a measurement from the tip to the guide placement, the butt to the guide, or from the spool face to the guide? Or is it from the center of the reel seat to the center of the guide? Thanks for the help.

I start from the spool face to the ring. But with test casting and static check this can change.

Bill - willierods.com

Reel spool face to guide.

DR

None of the above.

It pays to have the instructions. You're already off to what was preparing to be a very confusing start. Here's why - The 27X factor has nothing to do with the placement of the 1st guide. It determines the placement of the choker guide, which is not the same thing as the butt guide. The choker guide is then located that distance from the reel spool face.

From there, go to the library page and use those NGC instructions for the remainder of the layout. I think that will put you close.

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can the choker guide and the butt guide be the same, i.e. in the case of using fuji LCs (lowriders)?

No. Unless you want to have your butt guide a long, long way up the rod, which most likely will cause a terrible case of line slap.

If you want to experiment with using a very small ring, low frame guide right at the butt guide location, go right ahead. That won't be the NCG but it might work well enough for you. However, this is pretty much what you have when you take a casting rod, flip it over and hang a spinning reel on it. Ever done that?

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gotcha...my thinking was a little off there, but I realize that I was confusing the first and choker guide. Guess it has been a long day.

hi Tom,
When you say reel spool face,exactly where on the spool are you measuring from?Or maybe better said,what is the reel spool face?

thanks in advance,Scott

That's tough - it's just the face of the reel spool. I don't know any other way to put it. The drag knob is most often located on the spool face.

Some ask where the spool should be located as it moves forward and aft during the rotation phase. I took all my measurements with it in the center of that travel.

This brings up another interesting point that we don't often talk about - when test casting any spinning rod, most every cast is made with the spool a different distance from the butt guide even if we don't move the butt guide. The spool may be a little farther or a little closer each time depending upon where it stops when the line has been retrieve and we're ready for the next cast.

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Well duh . . . I've always stopped the reel with the roller right under the blank thinking I had casting consistency - I just checked my Daiwa and I can have as much as an inch travel with the spool forward or rearward. Learn something new every day.

Exactly, but an inch, usually, is not enough to spoil the cake. For consistency's sake, however, it's best to try and get the spool in the same spot each time. If you want to be unusually precise, that is.

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If you set the spool up centered on the shaft when doing calculations? Then you've cut the travel distance variable in half.

Sorry about that Tom. My bad.
Then again with the spool in the aft position, and the butt guide closer, would that not tend to control the pig tails a little sooner ? Then as said here maybe with the ( M ) guides and smaller ring sizes. All that micro talk.

Bill - willierods.com

I’ve done my own testing similar to Bob McKamey (ref M&M Vol 5 spinning rods) and found that the 27x may be relevant with monofilament lines, but totally irrelevant if you are using braids.

Please provide your factor for the all around optimum for the choker guide position for braids of all brands and sizes. If you've found a better location for it when using braids that seems to work extremely well for all reels, please list it. I'm sure folks would like to experiment with it. Thanks.

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From what I’ve concluded in my testing, I’m not sure that there would be a “choke guide” per se. The line (braid) is pretty much “tamed” as it goes through the butt guide. Obviously, I haven’t tested for all brands and sizes, but what testing I have done leads me to believe that braids are a whole new ballgame when setting up a guide “system”. I have documented my results and can email it to anyone interested. I’m not advocating a “new” system, but would encourage anyone to do their own tests.

Jim,

As you probably know, most won't do their own tests. No offense to anyone out there, but most average builders just want a "paint by the numbers approach" to guide set up. This is why I decided to take the 100+ outfits I had set up by trial and error and average the choker guide location on them. The 27X factor was the result. In no case did any of them have a choker guide location that was less than 26X or greater than 28X, so the average is based on a narrow spectrum. I believe this is why it works so well for most any rod and reel combination.

Braid is indeed a different animal, but taming of the line is not necessarily what counts. What counts isn't what the line does or looks like going through the guides, but where the lure goes. We had a discussion on this a couple weeks back about some video work that we had done years ago. The photos that showed the smoothest line movement did not correlate with the guide set ups that produced the longest casts. Sometimes the longest casts were made with set ups that were "noisier" and showed less line taming than other set ups. And these were done by machine so human error wasn't a part of the testing.

If you want to put your results on the forum that would be fine. At least it would give the guys a place to start their tests, at least those that want to do a little work.

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In the original Fuji conception of the concept, the spool upsweep angle was used to locate the choke guide. It worked but I did not like it because even with the same size reel you could wind up with several locations for the choke guide just due to the upsweep being different different. Add to that the fact that the low upsweep on some reels would sometimes put the choke guide off the tip of the blank!

I have worked with the 27X factor for choke guide location and it seems to work as well or better than anything I can get by trial and error casting and testing. On surf rods with very heavy mono I will sometimes go 28X or 29X to allow for more guides in larger sizes between the reel and the choke guide. But for me the main thing is to be consistent. I have found this newer implementation of the system to work well for me with any line, mono or braid, and in any size from 4lb test up to 20lb test. Only on very heavy outfits with 25lb test and up have I felt the need or seen any difference to move the factor out past 27X. I do believe that the 27X factor is a guideline offered to help builders get their NGC rods set up as close as possible right off the bat, but additional tweaking and test casting is always a good idea. There can be no one factor or formula that will perfectly suit all rods and reels, but this seems a good one to get you right downtown in the correct ballpark on the first try.

The results (thus far) of my tests has shown that the use of smaller butt and transition guides casts as well as the “normal” NGC system. The primary advantage is the subsequent weight savings of the guides. The disadvantage would be the versatility of using other line choices (mono and fluorocarbon). The critical factor in setting up the guides is a “balance” of the butt guide size, its height and the distance from the spool. The specifics of my test set-up is too lengthy to post here, but I’ll send a copy to anyone interested. Admittedly, my tests are not totally comprehensive or scientific. More valid testing would have to be done in a lab setting with proper test equipment and hi-speeding imaging capabilities and budgeted by a rod manufacturer or an industry player. I could only measure cast distance, which of course was subject to human error.

Tom;
You bring up a good point about your tests and using 100 or so rods to determine the optimum starting location for the choker guide.

It may take that many or more to determine the same guidelines for smaller guides, and the choker location using braids. We may even find out that there is no narrow spectrum to work with.

We may (or may not) also find that we never obtain the incredible casting distances I have witnessed on rods set up with your 27x system.
But then the consideration of what the rod is being used for may determine which setup better suites the situations the rod is being used for.
Examples;
On surf rods I absolutely want the furthest casting setup that can be obtained.
On a drop shot rod I want the lightest setup I can find that will still do the job.

Rich Forhan brought up a good point a while back. In that we can already out cast our ability to set the hook on bass rods effectively. So if the end result was to loose a few feet with the smaller guides, and still obtain our objectives. It may not be a bad thing.
In bass fishing there are very few times when we are trying to get the furthest distance anyway.