Disclaimer - I know this has been discussed over and over. I think some info is buried in some other thread and I'm not pulling back any results.

My point here is I would like to get out in the open the exact opposite of what many other posts have tried to accomplish.

I want to make a rod heavier. Why? (Strap on your seatbelts... this one could get bumpy!)

Here's the scenario, 7'11" swimbait rod. 13" carbon handle (should have probably gone a little longer). 4" carbon foregrip. Shimano Cardiff 300A. Will be throwing 2 - 3 oz hardbodied swimbaits.

I've got this thing sitting here an ounce of lead in the butt. Feels ok. Two ounces and it balances about 1" off the center of the reel spool - still feeling good. 3 ounces and eh, now it feels like I'd be better clobbering the fish with it but the balance is centered with the reel spool.

Given the technique (not in a rod holder, actively cranked, held possibly several hours of a day) and knowing you will be launching 2 -3oz baits - how would you go about weighting this rod?

Personally - looking for thoughts. BUT I think all we ever talk about with adding weigh is balance. There's the whole side to weighting a rod given the weight of the lure involved.

Here's one thought I had. If you tuck the handle into your side or under your arm, and are actually holding the rod by the foregrip... would you be better off with a balance point in the foregrip? But... factoring in the weight of lure - how would it change?

Let's get it going...

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Once the rod is loaded for casting with a hand at the reel and one at the bottom of the rear grip, I don't think a balance point slightly ahead of the reel presents any problem. Additionally, once the swimbait is being pulled through the water on the retrieve, any small amount of weight you placed only 12" behind the reel is instantly overcome by the large bait almost 8' out. Water resistance will increase the effective weight of the bait. I guess I'm saying for active fishing methods, you probably can't put enough weight on the butt of the rod to overcome the large moment arm out to the tip of the rod and the bait's weight and water resistance, so why add any weight at all.

Cheers
Bill

When the lure is close to the tip the rod will be out of balance and as soon as the lure is in the water being worked back to the boat it too will cause the rod to be out of balance so I do not see any point in adding weight to the rod. You will never hit a point where it balances out and is being used to fish.
The angler will still have to "carry" the load or weight of the rod for the whole day so by adding weight you are making them work harder for no extra gain as far as I can see.

Rolly Beenen
Rovic Custom Rods

Best I can do - complex thinking for a "simple sounding" issue

This subject will nearly always bring in the "sensitivity" issue as well.

Weight is measured on a scale that is static and not moving.

When a mass is at rest on a static plane it possesses potential energy - that potential energy translates to weight and is registered on the scale as the unit of measure of ounces or pounds.

Unless the elevation of the weght is moved vertically no work is required - work is determined by moving a mass a vertical distance.

When using a fishing rod the angler is the one that is required to do the work - if he raises the entire mass of the rod vertically work is done which requires energy output.

Mass added anywhere impacts that sensitivity word adversely - so technically we do not want to do this -

When holding a rod in hand in a constant plane without raising or lowering the total weitht of the rod the "balance" you refer to is determined by the location of the hand and the position of the mass. Think about it this way - if you walked up to a see saw and tried to lift the entire thing where would it be best for you to grab it - certainly not on one end.

Once you get the rod picked up and in hand and are simply holding it you do not do any work unless you move it vertically. Think about holding a bar with 200 pounds across your chest in a health club - you can hold it all day unless you start to raise and lower it -

The only work is done is when you move weight a vertical distance. The same is true for a fishing rod.

Your swim bait example is more complex and it may be easier to discuss when a pitching technique is employed using a rod that is tip heavy with lure present - say a 7' 6" punch rod with 1 1/4 oz lure hanging on the end.

Normally the reel is held by palming with the hand centered over the reel - simply rotating the tip of the rod while the hand is held in a position at waist level - what is the only thing moving? Are you raising or lowering the entire weight of the fishing rod?

Only the tip of the rod and the lure is lifted over and over and over vertically during lure presentations -

If this weight is a total of two ounces out on the end of the long lever arm and the distance of movement is three or four feet each time the angler make a presentation then HE MUST do the work reuired to lift that weight - for 2,000 pitches a day the arm will tire and the elbow after a few years will hurt like the devil at the end of the day.

In this case, the word is not balance but is simply some HELP! Robert Russel was right the other day when he noted that balance alone is a real horrible consideration with top knoch anglers.- This logic applies to very few fishing rods and is not done for balance reasons alone.

Again this is one of those things that is a trade off and needs to be done thoughtfully for those who understand.

If you are near a childrens play ground look at the smile on the face of the big kid that has a skinny playmate stranded in the sky on the see saw!

I do have competitive anglers with smiles on their faces when using some of the big boy rods all day! I will have one of the pitching rods in High Point and will encourage all customn builders to pick it up - use it for a few minutes in both the butt rapid install adjustable weighted and no weight sets ups - I will keep a tally sheet for those testers to vote on preference and will post the results of this blind test on this board.

On the swim bait beast your are working with you are moving it all over the place vertically for the tuck and everythings else under the sun and added weight any place will require more work - case by case -



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2008 09:46AM by Bill Stevens.

Alex, sounds like you need to talk to some of the builders that do muskie rods. They have similar experiences in all their rods and they are used in similar ways just heavier lures and reels.

Alex;
I do not add weight to any rod that I use with tight line techniques such as cranking.

Just as I will add weight to a slack line technique rod to make it tip light because I fish it tip up. On cranking rods I fish them tip down most of the time, with that in mind I prefer them a bit tip heavy to aid in this. I do not add any weight to accomplish this but will use shorter handles then some while making the handle as light as possible.

Alex, I'm with Steve on this one when throwing swimbaits. You've got MORE than enough rear handle there.
Jeff

Alex,
How are you adding weight to the rod?
Do you have the weight on the extreme end of the butt - i.e. all of the weight is past the end of the current rod butt?
If so, you have the longest lever arm to achieve balance with minimal added weight.

After fishing balanced, unbalanced, and nearly balanced rods, I find that I favor a rod, that ahcieves the closest balance with the minimum amount of weight.

By that I mean the following.

Lets say that I figure that the absolute best balance point is at some point just below the reel.

I further find that by adding 1/4 oz of weight - I can bring the balance point back from 4 inches in front of the reel to 2 inches in front of the reel.
Then, if I add another 1/4 oz, I can bring the balance point back another 1 inch to one inch in front of the reel.
But, I find that to move the balance point that last inch, I have to add an additional 3/4 oz of weight.
So, generally speaking, I will use the weight - in this example of 1/2 oz - to get the balance point to the nearest point with minimal added weight.

Remember, the further the balance point comes back, the shorter the lever arm becomes for the total mass transfer, Hence, more proportional weight is needed the further the blanace point moves aft.

Thus, your comment on the need for a longer butt section is appropriate for rods needing to be nearly balanced with minimal added weight. The longer the butt section, the longer the lever arm for balance with minimal added weight.
This is especially apparent in these days of split grips. If building a split grip and you need to achieve balance, it is easier to add inches to the weighted butt section to acheive the best balance with minimal added weight.
Of course, the rod still has to be user friendly, and not have a butt section so long that it shortens the effective fishing distance too much, or makes the rod unfriendly for casting and catching fish.

Take care
REW

Roger - good case on the longer handle. Never thought of it that way.

Yes, my weight is going on the extreme end of the blank. Only place I would put it. Right now I'm just taping lead sinkers to the end for testing. Working on other methods.

Given my technique for working this size bait - I tuck the rod handle into my side so it's not all wrist fighting the resistance while in the water - I use the side of my body and my entire forearm - the longer handle also makes sense from a comfort perspective.

Bill - not moving this as much as pitchin...

Another thought I had is the strain induced in casting a 2.5+ oz lure with a tip heavy rod. Would it be easier casting with more butt weight?Would tip heavy promote a longer cast? Wouldn't hanging on to all this weight (tip heavy) on the end of an 8' pendulum through the movement of a cast be more tiring?

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Alex,
I agree with everything you say.
i.e. I don't like to cast, retreive, or use a rod that is very heavy in the tip. If it is slightly tip heavy - fine. But if it is very tip heavy, I take measures to reduce the tip weight.

There are some fishing techniques that essentially keep the rod tip pointed nearly straight down all of the time. A lot of the Muskie techniques are like this as well as the Bass Fishermen when they work jerk baits.
In this case, I think that in these cases, the tip can be a bit heavier with little loss in fishing ability, as well as little change in fatigue factor.

Take care
Roger

Being one of those Musky freaks, I caught 3 today! very good day....anyway.....I'm throwing 3-8oz lures all day long. I want the LIGHTEST rod I can build!! The rod is tucked under the arm during cranking, jerking, pulling..... and balance is not an issue. A tip heavy (little bit) rod is not even a bad thing either, as most presentaions including swimbaits are being pulled with the rod tip AT the waters surface, not with it high in the sky. Butt weight is going to make ZERO difference in casting.

A nice long handle is a must and I'd never add weight to a musky rod. Sometimes I put large pewter Musky pins inlaid in the rear of the grips and these do add weight when you add the epoxyto incase them. I have, and fish, with BOTH, heavier with pin and lighter without pin.... less weight is BETTER, balance on a large heavy lure rod is mute, make it as light as possible and after throwing 3oz all day you'll be glad you did!

DR



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2008 07:59PM by Duane Richards (DR).

Good input. Going to start unweighted. See how it goes. I slid the reel seat up a little and got the balance point about 1" in fromt of reel with no weight. Start there, fish it, tinker.

I was interested in some Musky talk so glad you chimed in DR. I thought there was a lot of similar technique when fishing for that ugly thing.

Posted a pic. This is a dry fit, still got a couple things to tinker with.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

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I've not built a dedicated "big" swim bait rod yet.
So I have question born out of ignorance.
When using swim baits, I'm still palming the reel.

Is there a need for the large fore grip?
Or what is the need for the large fore grip?

Personally, I've found it helpful when reeling and fighting a fish.

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Steve,
When I fish some of the biggest swim baits, I'll move my hand up to the fore grip for less strain on my forearm and wrist. I have the utmost respect for the guys that cast these big baits all day whether it's for bass or some of those nasty toothy fish up north. It will flat out wear you out. I thought throwing a +30 or Hot Lips all day was tiring. These big swim baits make those feel like a Minus 1. Big swim baits are just about the only technique that I don't palm the reel.

When I am throwing something like a 6" paddle tail style swimbait, I can still use a heavier action rod or even a flip stick, and I palm the reel still. I may even use a heavier crankbait rod.

When I get up into the hardbaits 1.5oz - 2 oz+, it changes the game for me. Much less palming. Fatigue because a huge issue. Sensitivity isn't as important to me. IN my experience, the strikes I've gotten aren't exactly taps.

The bad part is, I'm typically throwing a big bait at the end of the day looking for a kicker. Already tired then...

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Alex, Robert
Thanks for the info I've not thrown hard baits that large but it makes sense.

Steve,

Some guys love a forgrip as stated above and I can see their points. However, I use NONE on my musky rods. With the rod tucked under the arm and hand around the bottom of the reel, the other hand on the reel handle, I just dont see a need for a forgrip. With that said I DO place my hand on the rod where the forgrip would be during the battle at times, but the rod blank (large diameter blanks here) is far from "uncomfortable" for ME to use as a leverage point.

Meaning: I think its up to what the angler wants and is most comfortable using.

DR

Good point there DR... I measured the blank diameter on this one at the top if the foregrip... It's .537". The butt was .636".

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Alex, good luck - that 13 inch handle on that rod is going to beat you down - next time start at 15 1/2 and tuck. You'll learn over time where to position your hands. NEVER add weight to a tight line moving lure rod - period. It functions in the shop only - never on the water. Listen to Duane R.

In the meantime - the only thing that may help you with that rod as built and the lures you have in mind - is a weight training program at the gym.