noticed someone selling a tool to check balance of rod, their pivot point appeared to be just in front of the reel seat, or reel.
how important is the balance, should it be more in the back, centered around your hand or a little forward,
type of fishing would be jigging, or casting with flukes or top water lures.

should you base the length of your handle on where the center point should be.

Personal preference:
On jigging rods (those used in saltwater applications for jigging tins) I like the rod to be "tail heavy" because the jig will be lifted off the bottom lots of times before a bite happens (and fish usually hit on the "flutter" back to the bottom) - so the thinking here is that there may be more control on the drop (positive rear weight)
On rods used for top-water casting I prefer the rod to be balanced under my hand (where the hand will be) - for spinning rods that's under the reel seat - on casting rods a little to the rear of the reel seat.

Like Ken said, it depends on what technique you are fishing. Personally I really only balance my Jig, Frog, and pitching rods. These are applications where I am going to be working the rod for a long period of time with the tip up. I try to get these to balance directly in the middle of the reelseat since I palm my reels. For my tip down techniques (crankbait, jerkbait, spinnerbait, etc.) I only worry about it if the rod is so butt heavy that it becomes uncomfortable. Honestly though I have never had that problem with those techniques since the rod tends to be lighter overall than flip/pitch/frog rods.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

Details on what Scott is describing:

Here we go again: This very specific response is related to bass fishing with very heavy rods for flipping and pitching lures in excess of 3/4 of an ounce all day long -

The technique being utilized is quite important when considering balance. Addition of additional weight many times is not advisable. The micro build technology maximizes the removal of all excess weight from a fishing rod to make it more productive.

But: There are times where it is required - one of those times involves the addition of balancing systems to permit the angler to fish with a rod all day with a rod and lure that places stress on the arms -

Here is what rodbuilders as well as fishermen may overlook. Many go to the health club to lift weights! The weights can be quite heavy -When a guy is lying on a bench with a bar across his chest with 200 pounds he is doing absolutely no work and he will not tire at all. Let the dude move the weight vertically and it will not be long till he is completely exhausted. A rod being held in hand possesses potential energy - you do no work by simply holding it and you will not tire.

[www.glenbrook.k12.il.us]

If a fisherman makes four presentations a minute with a 1.25 oz bait with a moment arm of six feet (distance from hand to rod tip) and works the jig at all during the presentation by lifting he is performing a significant amount of work. Not only is he lifting the lure weight but he is also lifting the weight of the blank and components each time. I have spent time observing approximately 20 tournament bass fishermen and most will will exceed 2,000 lure presentations in a six hour period when punching grass or jig fishing.

What all of this gibberish is telling me is that the issue of overall weight reduction if properly tied to rod balance for the lure weight and presentation technique could be quite important for those interested in building a better rod. The optimum rod for lure weights 1 oz and above will have minimum added weight in front of the reel - even down to micros - and a variable counter balance tuned for the lure weight.

If the rod is not balanced they be sure they pack extra peanut butter and jelly samwiches!

I 2nd Bills comments on the use of a balanced rod.

I further think that it is important on HOW a rod is balanced.

Balance may be achieved with minimum weight by using the longest balance arm on a lever.

i.e. Keep all of the weight in a mass at the very butt end of the rod.

For those who want to put LEAD or weight up the inside of a Blank --- DON't do it.
A very very very bad idea to put weight up the inside of a blank.

By putting weight up the inside of a blank, you are adding more and weight further forward with a shorter and shorter lever arm. i.e. you are adding weight to the rod, without achieving balance.

Rather, if you do have to - or want to - balance a rod - keep all of the weight concentrated in the last 1/2 inch of the rod.

You can achieve this by adding a weighted butt cap, one of the balancing systems currently on the market that mounts on the very butt end of the rod, or you can use lead tape around the last 1/2 inch of the blank, before adding cork, or the butt cap.

Sometimes it is better to achieve a compromise on absolute best balance. i.e. you can often add a 1/4 oz of weight and get to 80% of the desired blance point. Then, you find that to achieve a 100% balance point, you find that you have to add an additional 1 oz of weight. You will likely have a better overall rod, by only adding the 1/4 oz of weight and an 80% optimum balance point rather than adding 1 1/4 oz and a 100% balance point.

Good luck and happy holidays.

Roger

Roger, I feel like a Bandito when they come to pick up the big boy rods. A Castaway XP3 905 micro build with three optional caps - Foam Zero on rod - then I slip on a reel and a couple of jig heads for them to shake - guess what - they pay almost for the weighting system as they do for the rods.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

I don't really know enough yet to weigh in on what point to balance to but I did see a balancing tool for sale on one of the sites and it really just looked like a bannana holder (the one where the bannana's are suspended from a medal hook above the counter) this one is just like that just has a longer hook so that there is room to put the rod. I think I know how I will make mine, it should be pretty simple if it is indeed a modified bannana holder.
James

Nature gave us all a balance guage. It's called an index finger!! Stick a finger out and set the rod on it to find where it balances!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I have always that the correct balance point was right above where your thumb wouild sit on the reel used on that particular rod, but I could be wrong.

Vern

I don't think a balancing tool is really necesarry, nor will it reflect the finished product. You really need to balance w/ a reel on the rod.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

I'm not a big fan of adding weight to a rod for the purpose of balance. In fact, I won't do it. I contend it is better to have a lighter rod that is nearly balanced than a heavier rod that is balanced. Do the math on the forces and vectors and you'll see why I think this.

Second, there really is no benefit to a balanced rod. If you want to balance anything, you should really balance the system. This means you need to include the reel, line and bait. You must also account for hand position as that is the point where you want to center the balance. A balanced rod for a guy that holds his hand in front of the reel will be tip heavy for someone that palms the reel.

Again, if you do the math on the forces, I think you'll see adding a 1/2 oz or more to balance a rod isn't worth it. The amount of rotational force on the tip during "high tip" techniques is literally minuscule compared to the added weight necessary to balance the "system".

Robert,
I would simply suggest that you fish for a day with a rod of your choice. Then, fish for a day with the same identical rod that is perfectly balanced, when fishing for very finicky fish - with light jigs.

Feel is so important in this style fishing, as is the overall sensitivity of the system.

For fishing for the first hour or so, there is likely little difference between the two rods.
But after fishing for 8-10 hours, the pole that is not balanced and causes you to clench your hand to hold it level - while waiting for that slight tap signaling the bite - gets to be very tiring. Also, the clenching of the hand to hold the rod, causes your hand to cut off its blood flow and lose sensitivity.

In contrast, the rod and reel that is perfectly balanced, simply "floats" in your hand, while awaiting that slight tap. Since, your hand is, and has been rather relaxed for the previous 8 hours fishing, the hand will not have lost its feel and sensitivity as is the case that happens when clenching an unbalanced rod.

I do however, agree, that for many types of fishing, the use of the perfect balance, is completely irrelevent.
When a person says that balance is required, really needs to ask how the rod will be used, and for what it will be used.

Have a happy holiday.

Roger

Roger,
You missed the key point about "high tip" techniques.

Robert,
I am not concerned with the weight of the lure on the cast, just working the bait in the water which is why I don't worry to much about balancing w/ anything more than the reel. But, to say that it doesnt make a difference makes me think that you have not flipped/pitched for three strait days of a tournament. I have much less muscle fatigue from a balanced rod than I do from working against tip weight of a heavy jig rod.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

DITTO to Scotts remarks!
A light tip also aids in bite detection on slack line techniques.

Ditto to scott and steves remarks.

Take care
Roger

Scott,
Do the math on how much rotational force is exerted on the tip when it is held high. Assume the rod is 7'6", .5 oz tip heavy and is held at 11 o'clock. Now do the math on how much weight must be added 12 inches behind the balance point to "balance" this set up. Understand the physics and do the math and you'll quickly see my point. With the rod held high, the rotational pull of an unbalanced rod is very minimal. However, the amount of weight necessary to balance this same set up is substantial in comparison.

To answer your question, I do almost nothing but pitch for the entire spring. I switched over a year ago from a very traditional set up, 7'6" mh with a Castaic on it that weighed more than 15 ozs, but was perfectly balanced under the reel because of a weight kit, to a Revo Premier on one of my lightest 7'6" rods that weighs about 10 ozs total. There's no comparison. I'd never go back to the balanced system and it makes a huge difference if all you do is pitch all day.

Further more, I've built the exact same rod that I now use, but added an ounce to the butt to make it more balanced (note: it's still not balanced even with 1 oz added to the butt). Any time I have a client that starts talking about balance, I let them demo each rod with the same Revo Premier and let them choose which they like best. I've done it about 10 times and never had one pick the rod with the added weight even though it is more "balanced". I can tell you they all say they want a balanced rod, but are happier with the lighter set up. Only once has some one even noted the weight difference. Most of the time, they say it just feels better or is more responsive without even understanding why. I'd be willing to bet you $50 that most of your customers would choose the same if given the same blind test.

I deal with 4 or 5 guides from one of the more famous bass lakes in this part of the country. These guys all spend 200+ days on the water and are all experts in everything (anyone that deals with guides knows exactly what I referring to). They've got big company rod sponsors and always tell me exactly what they want the first time we meet. I listen to them and then try to figure out what it is they like and don't like about their current set ups. They all say they want a "balanced" rod and yet I've let all of them demo the balanced and unbalanced rod and none of them picked the balanced set up. It is because of one of these guides that I built the two rods for comparison. He's known as one of the best sight fisherman in the world, frequently appearing on national tv. He insisted I add weight for balance to the butt of one of the rods I was building for him. I couldn't convince him otherwise until letting him try the 2 rods. He was convinced and never asked me to add weight to one of his rods again. Now if I could just convince him to try micro guides. :)

Robert

Robert - please clairfy the following:

" on one of my lightest 7'6" rods that weighs about 10 ozs total.

Is this the completed rod weight with no reel?

Come on Bill, you should know the answer to that. It is 10.3 oz with rod, reel and line. I've got a few of yours to try in both 7'6" mh and h from the xp3 line. I haven't weighed them, but I think the mh is 2.6 ozs or so and should build out well under 4 ozs with micros. I also ordered 12 of the Big Show and other high mod blanks to try.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2008 09:43PM by Robert Russell.

I'm with Robert. This will be a good topic for the Big Show - I intend to cover it in 'Innovative rod components' and (with humor I hope) - drive balance into a corner - one - last - time.