My skill level is nil with spinning rods... so another newbie question...

How much line slap is acceptable? Here's what I'm encountering with a set up - 16 stripper on a 2500 reel - I am getting no slap on the cast. Seems to cast very well and very smooth. However on the retrieve I am getting a little line slap every 4th crank or so. Seems to be occuring about 3 inches behind the stripper.

Could this also be because there is no resistance to my practice plug? I'm dragging it across concrete.

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I know that this is basicly unheard of and blasphemous when speaking about hard core Bass anglers. But has anyone tried the micro spinning system with a "QUALITY" underslung spincating reel, such as the Zebco and Diawa offerings? In my minds eye, I see that it wouldn't need the guide height that would be required with normally used spinning reels

Bill in WV



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2008 12:35PM by William Bartlett.

I posted a photo of the m guides next to a VS30 and VS25. I think I had the M12 and M10 next to the 30 and 25's the height is almost the same as the standard 25mm guide. [www.rodbuilding.org]

Bill - It's been my experience that the Zebcos don't have a decent drag for bringing in a fish and their gear ratio stinks IMHO.

I don't know about the Diawas.

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Alex,
It is possible that your line slap on retrieve is from the lack of line resistance. This can also be encountered when retrieving light lures where the resistance doe’s not overcome the centrifical force imposed on the line by the rotating bail

Does anyone have the heights for the common Fuji frames used on spinning rods?

The Batson VS3 guides are taller then the VS guides such that you could use a VS3 #20 and get the same height as VS #25. I would assume that the VS3 guide would be heavier (can someone confirm this?) so would the be a benefit to using a VS3 guide to get a smaller ring and increased line control even though it would increase the weight of the rod?

Patrick Rutledge

Alex-
The intermittent slap could be caused by retrieving on a less than smooth surface. Weight slides smoothly for a distance-catches slightly then releasing causing periods of tight and then slack line. Slap could be occurring during slack line periods. Pulling something like a small wheeled toy might give more consistent resistance.

Chris

I think another thing worth considering, especially for those of you using braided line, is downsizing reels. I use much smaller reels (Daiwa SS700 Tournament and Shimano 1500 series) than other folks do for bass fishing. They have shorter stem heights that get the spool centerline closer to the blank and contribute to the overall lightness of the set-up. Their smaller spool diameters handle braids very well.

Patrick, the heights of the Fuji TYSG 25J, 20J, 16J, 12J, 10J and 8J are 51(mm), 42.2, 34.2, 27.6, 21.7 and 17.6 respectively. A Batson “M” 16 would be .55mm(.022”) higher than the Fuji 20J and 7.75mm(.305") shorter than a Fuji 25J.

Wow!! -- Glad to turn the computer on today and find creative minds at work, with thoughts flowing as this post progresses. Don't be imtimated by using smaller guides from the butt to tip to set-up your spinning. Everyone is looking for those easy and magical spacing distances. I cannot stress enough -- TEST, TEST, TEST -- We need to stop and tthink for a minute, that a lot of the use of using smaller butt guides and the overall use of Micro spinning set-ups, are works in progress. We learn more and more all the time, as we test, test and build. With different size of reels and various spool designs by manufacturers of the spinning reels, distances from the spool of the reel to the butt guide can vary, along with the size of the butt guide, whether using a size 10, 12 or 16. You just have to test and adjust accordingly. Just as a starting point, I would look at 18" to 19" for 1000 size reels, 19" to 20" for 2000 to 2500 size reels and 21" or so for 3000. These measurements are just starting points and you will need to adjust. I am home now, but will be going to the shop later today and I will also obtain measurements of not only the butt guide distance I used on the set-up with the size 10 butt guide and Shimano 2500 reel, but also the next guides up and will post those measurements for reference. Jim Spooner has brought to mind some very good comments in his previous posts. In Don Morton's and Pat Vinzant's findings, using smaller butt guides and moving them closer to the spool of the reel, which does create a more pronounced angle, does not create any ill affects that you may think would occur. Some would call this a very severe angle and could not possibly work. As Bill stevens noted in a previous post, besides pre-determing the placement of the butt guide, also locate a guide that is critical on every rod. The guide that will be on the rod, where the rod starts it's flex point. You can locate that guide by simply flexing to a good deflection point. Flexing the blank up to around a 90 degree deflection, but don't go more than 90. With the butt guide somewhat pre-determined and the flex point guide located, you can then deflect the blank and fill in your other guides. I also fall back to previous ways of locating the choke guide, to enhance the set-up. The choke guide being one of those between the butt guide and flex point guide. You would then simply fill in the running guides on the tip area, from the flex point guide, out to the tip.

Bob McKamey -- Custom Tackle Supply

Very interesting Bob. I went down to my little cave rod room and measured the distance from spool to the # 20 high frame strpper I have on a micro spin rod I'm finishing. ( Picture of this stripper is currently on the photo page) I set it up several days ago to fit a Shimano 1000. 18" out to stripper is what came up the best with a New Concept style. This on a 6' Lamiglas.

Bob you made one serious mistake in your above post. This mind should never be said to be creative and normally is over medicated in an attmept to gain control over an obsessive compulsive dissorder. I don't build many spinning rods and seem to have had a lot of problems with them in the past. Nearly every one I built was returned and the customer asked me to remove the hook keeper. I really never bothered to ask the reason why and figured all of them simply did not know how to use a rod.

Then I say this picture on this board. [www.rodbuilding.org]

It did not take me long to figure out that most spinning rods were built for reason of convention. Simple observation that the wierd wave forms that exist between the reel face and the first guides on spinning as well as casting rods are not very well understood. The fact of the matter is that there is a real science behind what is occurring. The distance a bait travels is determined by the total kinetic energy possessed by the lure at the time of release. That total energy will be spent in one of two ways 1. propelling the lure forward or 2. Be lost in the system. The reduced sizing of the butt guide used on micro builds gains control of the line and reduces the loss of the whirling mass of line.

Looking at the picture of the line moving in the forms in the picture indicate there is a lot of loss of energy lost due to the huge and irregular bellowing of the line stacking up on the guides. These losses are not frictional in nature. There are some really wierd things about things moving in a circle that cause people concerns which are quite similar. I your are twirling a rock around your head tied to a string someone may ask you what is holding the rock out there - the really smart guy will will you nothing is holding the rock out there the string is holding the rock in - I think we will soon figure all this out and spinning rods will look a lot different in three or four years.

Want to see something very similar - look a the new Bass Magazine and look at the pictures of next years production rods - they are nearly all split grips!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2008 07:33PM by Bill Stevens.

I have to chime in here. I have personally removed a size 20 Aconite and put a 25 in it's place on an ISJ781. My friend has the same issue on an ISB822.5 and he is also going to replace the 20 with a 25. The 20 and smaller butt guides might work with light braid and a heavier weight, but in my experience if you try to cast a 1/8 oz jig with mono very far you might be disappointed. A smaller reel might help, but then your drag washers might be smaller too. I have two rods with M strippers, a 20 and a 25, and they work very well.

Chuck,
With the combined effect of very light lures, which tend to allow a lack of line tension, and mono (or fluorocarbon), which has a memory and tends to coil, the smaller butt guides may indeed cause too much “back pressure” or have a “damming” effect at the guide. A more aggressive cast may further aggravate the problem because of additional centrifugal forces seen by the line leaving the spool. Softer/limper (and/or lower pound test) monos may be more forgiving. I know of guys that go to larger reels to alleviate some of the effects of mono, but the larger spool diameters may be allowing more “bellowing” of the line as seen in the photo that Bill referred to. I use braids almost exclusively and many of my headaches went away…..having said that, braid doe’s have some of its own idiosyncrasies. LOL.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/25/2008 07:09AM by jim spooner.

Jim,

On some of my personal rods I have gone to 10# Spiderwire Stealth with a flouro leader. I still prefer mono (8# XL) and flouro (100%) for some finesses applications though. I agree...a more aggressive cast can sometimes be counterproductive! Most casting plugs are 3/8 oz, and I can fire those a mile. It's the lighter stuff that doesn't do that well with smaller butt guides in my experience. I haven't done any test casting with anything under a 20, and that will have to wait until spring. I'd love to try a 16 M guide with some micros just to see if I can get a decent cast with 6 or 8 pound flouro.

Chuck we are also struggling with the problems you note. I am curious as to the guide location and staging of the rods you reconverted to larger butt guides. If you simply replaced a smaller guide with a larger one it may be the smaller one was in the wrong location or was not tall enough - at this point just thinking not sure. I noted early on when using the lighter lines that the aero of the lure moving through the air had a significant effect on the distance achieved when using spinning equiqment. If you use the same light lure wt say for a worm and jig head and throw it you will get really skewed distance results if you remove the hook and place it in a wacky worm set up - this is complex stuff and certainly one simple build rule is not presently evident.

On another note - noticed the weather report this morning in your area. When do you hook up the dog sled to start your trip to High Point - no backing out this year!

The more I think about all this, the more I’m convinced that I don’t understand all I know about it! There’s a lot of things going on and Bill’s right….there’s some complex stuff.
I think that when setting up a spinning rod, the type of line being used must be considered. It would also follow that the actual testing must employ the type of line to be used for fishing. While braid and mono may share some characteristics, they each behave differently in some respects. For instance, mono tends to resist being “tamed” much more than braid. If you think about how the line comes off the spool, it wants to flare out away from the line of travel. The further it travels outward (bellows), the greater directional correction is required, resulting in energy loss. It would make sense that the size, location, and coaxial relationship to the “line of travel” would be pertinent. If the guide is too close to the reel, the more extreme correction to the line of travel, bleeding off energy. If the guide is placed too far out, the line is allowed to drift far off course, and again, it must undergo a directional change. There’s a loss of forward energy every time there’s a directional change. There’s a bit of a balancing act going on which we have to solve for, that will give us the least of the evils. The coaxial relationship of the butt guide to the line of travel has some relevance IMO, because if the guide is offset, there is a greater angular change at the point of contact at the guide ring when the line is exiting from the top of the spool as opposed to the bottom. Or, there might be no contact at all when the line exits the spool at the top and more pronounced contact (and angular change) as the line comes off the bottom of the spool. Seems like these conditions might cause an irregular “pulse” that might be detrimental. Therefore, it seems to me that having the spool diameter concentric with the guide diameter, would be more efficient. I realize gravity also plays a role in all this. It (gravity) and inertia, to some degree, would tend to compound the concentricity issue. The difference of “fluidity” between mono and braid also plays into all of this. As Bob empathized earlier, TEST, TEST, TEST. For optimum results, we’d have to keep in mind some of the variables which could influence test results. I.E. line type (mono/braid); line weight; line brand; temp (mono); dynamics (speed, rod loading), etc, etc. At the end of the day, hopefully, sanity will prevail. LOL. Most of us realize that even a “poorly” set up rod will probably perform satisfactorily. If a rod is set up as outlined in the library section or the updated version in RodMaker Magazine, it’ll work just fine for most lines or fishing types. However, optimizing performance has its rewards.

Bill - We have plenty of fresh snow, and the temp is MINUS 19 degrees F and the windchill is MINUS 30 F. The dogs are all dead! My wife and I will be heading east in a little black RAV4. I just can't miss this show. The money is in the bank and I have 2 weeks vacation approved by my supervisor at work.

Okay, about my swap to a 25. Walleye guys pitch light jigs spring and fall, and the 1/8 oz jig worm is big here for pressured bass. I went from a 20 to a 25 in a new position, and also removed the 12, repositioned and made it a 16. The rod is now 25, 16, 8, and 6F to the tip. I have had poor experiences using a 20 with mono and light lures. I have two personal rods with M guides and they are very promising. I must admit that I have not had the chance to test as much as I want. It takes me a little while to "get out of the box", and once I get acceptable results I tend to wrap and go. I do know that I have been using 21.25" from the lip of the spool to the guide ring as a starting point on most setups - this is with 25 & 30 size reels. I have had very poor luck with small reels and drags. I know...back reel. That's tough to remember in the heat of the battle at the side of the boat.

We use a lot of Fireline around here and it seems like the waxy finish makes the line draggy through the micros. This was with 8 & 10# Crystal on two different rods. One was a 5' 9" vertical jigger with a 20, then concept to 3mms. The other was a 6 1/2' MH with a 30 down to 3mm. Anyone else see that with Fireline?

Braid - a little off topic but what do you like? I have had good luck with Stealth and PP, but a few bad batches of PP got me wondering what you pros like.

Finally remembered to grab the rod out of my boat, to provide the spacing that I have been using. Simano 2500 Saros spinning reel - butt guide is 19" out from the lip of the spool - working towards the tip, next guide up is 8-3/4" and the next one up is 7-3/8". Guides used are a size 10 Y guide, a standard 8 V guide and then a 6 fly type, with the rest being size 3 running guides to the tip.

Bob McK -- Custom Tackle Supply

what type of blank Bob?

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6 Ft. - medium power - fast tip

Bob McKamey