Does anybody have any suggestions about minimum ring size for micro's as running guides on fly rods? Are Batsons a better choice because of the frame height?
Thanks,
Tom White

I have built one fly rod and used Batsom 3mm guides on it. Works for what I'm using it for

the rule is to use the smallest guide possible to allow the line and knots used to pass through. most flylines and knots will not pass through the micro guides. you may be able to use 4's on some very light fly rods. i was having some issues with the micros using mono on a few spinning rods. i tried braid(at steve gardner's suggestion) and it made a world of difference.

I heard talk of using 4.5's, which would still be a weight savings over the Alps 6's that I use now. I build mostly 3 - 7wt rods.
Thanks,
Tom White

just see how the line and knots go through and use the smallest size that works for the line wt used. some of those "special" tapers have varying line diameters. i like the ceramics, but use the single foot wires for 4wt and down most of the time.

Use the smallest guides that will pass your line and required connections. That may be a #2, or it may be a #10. Only you can determine that.

...................

Steve-
Has the fly rod worked?

Tom-you need a keyboard button that you can hit that says-use the smallest guide that works

Tom White, I searched through your posts and noticed that you DO build rods for others...I'm not sure by your question if this is one of those times. Regardless, you may want to consider what you (or someone else) might be using this rod for in the future. Knots have been mentioned, but what about mini-tip systems? Although a micro guide may work well with a given line used now, it may indeed limit your (or someones) ability to utilize other types of lines/connections in the future.

I suggest not getting too small, the weight savings of micros don't seem likely to be felt much with a flyrod. Yeah, I know some will disagree on the whole lightness issue and say how much they can feel with flytackle...it's what you didn't know you didn't feel. Flyline is flyline, even the low-stretch/high sense stuff is pretty bad so a rod alteration may make a slight difference, but don't expect much.

If it's an experiment, go for it and try to get 'em small! If it's a biz thing, may want to think twice or get more info from the customer. Even the smoothest connections of any kind get jammed-up in guides, I'd hate to hear of one pulling out. Oddly enough, this may be one of the more relevant tests of these guides and how they hold up.

Chris;
Yes it works great, but I am by no means an expert on fly rods. It was built it on a Shikari popping blank. Afterwards went to Visit Mr. Kirkman to find out exactly what I had and which line weight would be best for using the bait I built it to throw.
I am also not passing
a knot through it that much because I’m using a shorter leader. I few people suggested using a 5-6wt all the way up to a 12wt. line based on input about the rod and what would be normal.

But after throwing it some and seeing what I was attempting to do Mr. Kirkman put me on an 8wt line forward line which works fine. I also have to give him credit for teaching me how to though the thing to start with.

I was going to include a link to the original questions and responses to this project when started, but after seeing that most of my questions and comments had been hacked out of them, it would be of little use.

Actually, the longer the rod, the more any weight savings, particularly near the tip, will become readily apparent. Fly rods tend to benefit from guide weight reduction more than just about any other type of rod. Faster damping, quicker reaction, etc.

But, you still have to use guides that are large enough to pass your line and any required connections. That was true 100 years ago and it's still true today.

......................

Steve Gardner,
What line weight and type of line did you use on the fly rod with the size 3 micro's?
T.White

I believe I put him on a WF #8. Steve would have to say what brand he eventually went with.

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Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, the longer the rod, the more any weight
> savings, particularly near the tip, will become
> readily apparent. Fly rods tend to benefit from
> guide weight reduction more than just about any
> other type of rod. Faster damping, quicker
> reaction, etc.
>
> ......................

True...but how much over a standard single foot wire? I don't know the weights and would guess that micros (guide & thread) would be somewhat lighter, though probably not a whole lot. After looking through some singlefooted wire guides on my rods, one thing did occur to me and it may be surprising if put into practice. A great deal of what hangs things up in flyrod guides is actually the diameter of the skinny wire and that is largely IME where the hang-ups are. Some of the micros do have a bit more of an angle to them, and I was wondering if they can "bump" a knot or connection over the guide better? Some bigger Alconites do actually pass the connections better than any wires do, looks like it's mostly a function of contour/angle on the guide ring. May be where the best advantage is here if it works better.

Steve Gardner, I realize that some of the "hacked out of them" stuff on the flyrod/shad bassing thread is probably gone, but I wouldn't mind if you posted some highlights here, especially if you did (hint) run a few knots through the system to see how they behave. Due to my odd connections and numerous close quarter experiences with stream smallies, I'm admittedly a bit paranoid about inter-guide hang-ups with flyline-leader junctions. Easy to pull too much line in at the lip grabbing point and it sometimes feels like one could lose a guide or poorly assemble tip section when things go awry.

You can shake a naked fly rod blank, install nothing but a tiptop and then shake it again and easily feel, and even see, the difference.

The longer the rod the more any weight out there is going to have an adverse affect on it. At some point the weight savings may indeed be minimal but in most cases you still reap some benefit.

Still, your line has to go through the guide rings, along with any knots or loops, etc. Thus you can only go so small.

............

I've used size '5' American Tackle Titan's on rods casting 5 and 6 weight lines with no problem, but I don't see passing any 6wt tapered FLOATING lines through a size '4' guide ring. On my floating lines, I always use the Whitlock Superglue Splice (flyline to leader) with Extruded Tapered Leaders. Creating this connection is a bit arduous (and requires a dacron braided core flyline), but very beneficial because there is no knot present to hang up in my guides. On sinking lines I use a nail knot, but my leader is rarely longer than 4 ft. so my guides never see the knots.

Ever one is worrying about weight, and knots going though rings, why not just use single foot wire guides. Light, no ceramic ring, but a smaller ring can be used with knots going though ??

I agree with Bill. I've used 2/0 size, light wire, single foot snakes, which are very small, but still able to pass a loop to loop connection on a 6 wt WF floating line. I am not sure that I would want to pass this connection while fighting a fish, but, other than that, this size works fine. I just weighed (5) 2/0 light wire SF guides and (5) 4mm gold zirconia/black frame guides, and the wire guides seem to be slightly lighter. I could never pass a loop to loop through the 4mm guides. For me, the choice is clear: if weight is the critical factor, I would go with the 2/0 SF wire guides. On the other hand, if I am going to use the rod a lot, and wish to get the maximum life out of my fly line, I'd go with a 5mm or 6mm ceramic.

Joseph;
Not being a “fly fisherman” I don’t really know how things are supposed to be done, but this is what has been working.
First the fish I’m chasing are schooling bass their up on second and down the next up again in a different spot and eating little things that I can’t effectively cast on a bait caster or get the rang I want with spinning rods and reel in fast enough and back out again before they go down.

What I’m throwing is a little 3” worm. That looks a lot smaller then it is when in the water.
These fish are not line shy, just very bait specific in relation to size, eating the new born shad running around the lake, and this matches very well in apperianece.

Because they are not line shy I am able to use a shorter leader about 4 ft long of 10 lb test.
I have been using two setups for knots that have been working.
The one which I really don’t like just because I don’t feel secure with it, is one of those little “NO knot eyelet” thingy’s. Have had some malfunction problems, most likely me but problems the same and the little buggers are so hard to get in there to begin with.

The other which is working just fine but took a little practice to figure out;
Is to use one side of a “UNI-NOT system, tie the leader to the fly line about ½ inch up, which holds to the fly line securely.

Clip the tag end of the leader ONLY, leaving the fly lines tag end. Then take scissors and clip a slit in the end of the fly line 1/32” long. Pull the leader into the slit and add a drop of fishing supper glue. After allowing it to dry for a little, clip the end of the fly line that flairs out a bit at 45 degree tapers. This leaves kind of a point and a very small knot profile that passes through the guides,

When leader replacement is needed clip the off the, (the same 1/32” slit you began with) then clip off the uni-knot leaving the rest of the F. line in tact. I actually end up loosing less fly line then if I use that little knot thingy and have to replace it

Just a point. Species of fish may also play into guide size consideration.
Nothing like watching the top section of a 4 piece rod go shooting thru the water with a big ol' knot of running line stuck in the top. Praying it's an albie and not a 15 lb blue fish on the other end!!!

TJB