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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Steve Gardner (---.nc.res.rr.com)
Date: December 02, 2008 08:28AM

Russ
I totally agree with you and suggest you ignore those people that
"tell you that if you're not using micro guides or the NCG system you obviously don't know squat about modern rod building."

The same with the people that try and make it obvious that “you have no clue about what we're supposed to be doing"

I am so glad that kind of stuff is NOT posted or permitted on this board. (Thank You Mr. Kirkman and moderators!!)

Fact is there are probably 100 different or more ways to build a rod with none of them being the "right way" and maybe just a few being the wrong.

Because a person or group of people go through the trouble to share and explain the benefits obtained by changing this or that in their designs.
In no way implies that they are trying to make other people wrong or tell them they don’t know what they are doing .
The same as when you introduced the ribbon idea, it did not automatically make weavers wrong, it just provided options for people to look at.

Choosing to build a rod that performs better is an option, using ribbons to save time in building rods is an option. But in neither case does that imply that the other ways of dong so are wrong. Nor have I read or seen that implied on this site.

For the most part it is one preferred style and design over another. Yes some of those designs will perform better then others, but it is still our individual choices to decide which way to go and foremost as you inferred for those selling rods. The number one objective is to please the customer. That’s what keeps them coming back.

After all how boring would this site and the ICRBE be if everyone built exactly the same rod with the same look and design.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.east.verizon.net)
Date: December 02, 2008 10:01AM

THe reason a thread like this can be started, and get people all twisted up, lol is because there are many people who look at a rod with decoration on it like a useless wall hanger, adn many who look at a rod with no decoration on it with teeny guides as a gag gift for their 86 y/o father in law who is blind in one eye.

There are so many different builders who build anything from Ice rods to unlimted Tuna rods, who have a difficult time reading info and applying it to what they do. There are also a few (or a one) who are (is) so thickheaded that they (he) are (is) unable to comprehend that there are more than one (AND ONLY ONE) way to build a rod. lol. As a result everyoen suffers with threads like this, which are obviously done in a joking manner, as well as some one (not the same ONE as the prior sentence) who posts pictures of art which he did the sketch, but forgot to color it in, lol.

On a serious note, it is insulting for people to think that because someone puts art on their rods, that they are incapable of building a functional rod.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Steve Rushing (---.north-highland.com)
Date: December 02, 2008 11:15AM

I like Billy's last comment. I've never understood the reasoning that a "pretty" rod can't be "functional". One value to me of this board has always been the core idea to keep the build as light as possible to keep as much of the blanks inherent efficiency as possible, without sacrificing structural soundness. With the advent of M&Ms I continue to learn more about the limit of "light as possible" and where that intersects with structural soundness. This lets me establish a starting point of design on which I can add back "embellishments", some of which add back weight (a butt wrap & customer's name) some of which don't (thread colors that compliment the customer's boat colors (or sponsor's logo colors)). If the M&M's are establishing a new frontier of functionality then the core design by definition is at the cutting edge of functionality. If I move off that edge some small percentage by intentionally adding "embellishments" that distinquishes the finished rod I'm still confident that it is soundly built and its performance is ahead of the "functionality" of off-the-shelf rods (or other one-off rods that might not take advantage of improvements in componentry - e.g., heavy wire snakes on light fly rods). And, it is a rod uniquely the owner's.

I guess I'm becoming a Micro Moderate.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: December 02, 2008 02:58PM

delete



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2008 04:19PM by Bill Stevens.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Russ Pollack (---.org)
Date: December 02, 2008 03:50PM

Chris - nah, didn't quite mean it the way you got it. But to start, you're absolutely right in the idea that we are all building to the customer's requirements. Actually, we'd better be, or we're out of business.

I was referring more to a general attitude in some of the threads concerning "light" and "layout " (i.e., guide selection and placement) by a relatively few self-annointed experts who will have a go at someone who might have the temerity to question (or challenge) the supremacy of "lighter-is-better" and "micro (or NCG) is the only way to properly build a rod". It wasn't aimed at those of us who are, as you say, doing what we can to produce the finest rods we can for our customers, per their specific requests.

Gary and I don't build rods for the rack. A number of potential customers have talked to us or come by the shop and asked to see our rods and the best we can do is show them something in-process or in the finishing stages, because they are delivered when finished and rarely sit in the shop for more than a week afterwards. They like what they do see, but thought they could just buy one off the rack. When we explain that each rod is built to order, and offer them to sit with us and design their own rod, a certain number demur and, surely enough, head for the nearest retailer or WalMart.. The ones that stay will often say, during the ordering process, that they'd like something light but that's relative, especially in SW fishing. We do keep an eye on the lightest components within the overarching standard of strength and durability that they usually consider as equal factors to "how far does it cast" and "what's the biggest fish it's designed for". And believe it or not, we always offer alternative designs (i.e, micro guides, high guides, shorter, longer, etc). Then next thing we know, after the look of surprise at what we built, they go out and bust something twice the size we intended, and are bloody proud of it, too. So, we're doing exactly what you said.

On the other hand, we just had a BASS pro ask us for his second rod. He was surprised at the first (a spinner) for it's relatively light weight but most of all for its strength - this guy can break a stick quicker than you can imagine (yup, high-stick). This new one was a casting model and by direct comparison with some of his store-bought stuff it was 2/3 the weight but had 25% more guides, and ours were bigger. His comment - "you guys nailed it", as he pitched a 1/4oz rig 50ft to a 50-cent sized target and hit it three times in a row.

I guess weight and design are relative, especially when measured in the crucible of actual performance in the hands of the customer.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2008 03:51PM by Russ Pollack.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Bill Colby (---.charlotte-15rh16rt-16rh15rt.nc.dial-access.att.net)
Date: December 02, 2008 04:39PM

There is a big difference in "having a go" at somebody and simply making a person aware of the latest in proven techniques and methods. I am glad this site has more of the latter and less of the former.

You can build a rod the same way it was built back in the 1940s and it will work as well now as it did then. You can also use a newer and more performance oriented method that takes advantage of the latest materials and knowledge and it will work even better than what we used way back when.

It all depends on your customers and what they may be used to or want. I know that the customers I have that I have switched to the NGC would be very disappointed if I were to build them a rod with the old cone of flight guide system now. It would be heavier , not balance as well and not cast quite as far. They would not want to go backwards.

But if a customer came in and specified that he wanted a rod with the cone of flight system and I made him aware of what was available and he still opted for the older method. I would build it for him and he would be happy.

You can lead a horse to water but if he will not drink that 's his decision. As long as he goes away happy you have done your job.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Alex Dziengielewski (---.scana.com)
Date: December 02, 2008 06:03PM

"...surprised at the first (a spinner) for it's relatively light weight but most of all for its strength" - performance based trait
"...by direct comparison with some of his store-bought stuff it was 2/3 the weight but had 25% more guides, and ours were bigger" - performance based trait (you just went about it differently than someone else did.. nothing wrong with that, could be a competitive advantage!)

How much "art" or aesthetic based attributes were on the rod? Just curious.

A lot of us in the bass market are listening to our customers. And it's driving performance based rods. As it did for Russ with this customer.

-----------------
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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Richard Kuhne (---.listmail.net)
Date: December 02, 2008 07:23PM

There are many ways to accomplish the same thing. But there are also right and wrong answers to SOME things. FI, the other day somebody asked about the New Guide Concept Choker guide and someone told them that it was the same thing as a butt guide. That was ignorance of the technique and could have led someone astray. The person asking the question deserved the correct answer. Fortunately he got it but not after a completely wrong answer was given. I hope the original poster hung around long enough to see the correct answer posted.

What I would hate to see happen in rod building is that we get so politically correct that we begin accepting any answer as being correct. There are some facets to rod building where there are right and wrong answers and newcomers deserve to get the correct answers when this is the situation.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Richard Kuhne (---.listmail.net)
Date: December 02, 2008 07:27PM

There are many ways to accomplish the same thing. But there are also right and wrong answers to SOME things. FI, the other day somebody asked about the New Guide Concept Choker guide and someone told them that it was the same thing as a butt guide. That was ignorance of the technique and could have led someone astray. The person asking the question deserved the correct answer. Fortunately he got it but not after a completely wrong answer was given. I hope the original poster hung around long enough to see the correct answer posted.

What I would hate to see happen in rod building is that we get so politically correct that we begin accepting any answer as being correct. There are some facets to rod building where there are right and wrong answers and newcomers deserve to get the correct answers when this is the situation.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Mike Barkley (---.try.wideopenwest.com)
Date: December 02, 2008 09:00PM

I just HAVE to put in my 2 cents!! First off, I will say that I love the work that the M & M's do and really enjoy reading and learning from the threads BUT, IMO, these recent threads are verging on people forming sides as to what is the correct way to build a custom rod. I think that someone should point out the fact that we all fish differently and build differently. What's best for a competitive angler and bass fisherman, is not necessarily best for a walleye, salmon or oyher types of fishing.

I may be wrong but I would guess that the majority of builders build for themselves, friends, etc and sell a few to pay for their hobby and aren't competitive (I want to make it very clear that I am NOT againgst tournaments, bass fishing or ANY other form of fishing!!!).

There is more than enough room in this craft for the minimalist, the thread heads, the gaudy and/or anything else that anyone wants to build.
Form AND function can exist and no one ought to be made to feel "politically incorrect" if they prefer "eye Candy" on their rods.

Every rod that I build has "eye candy" in the form of grip work, feathers, thread, marbling, etc. and it is included in the price. I give the customer what they want and so far, every customer has wanted it that way and has been thrilled with the performance also. Could it be better? YES, it can always be better but I prefer to reach a compromise and combine form and function rather that throw one out the window in favor of the other.

I do want to say again, that I'm not knocking anything or anyone and admire all of the skills that I see by the builders here!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Anthony Lee (---.omega12.maxonline.com.sg)
Date: December 03, 2008 01:29AM

I once talked about custom rod building as "Romancing the Rod". Yes there are guys that use, caress and romance their custom fishing rods for their specific characters and the "one of its kinds" values. They even believe that such rods have"souls". There are others who believe that the fishing rod is just an efficient tool for competition, just like how the tennis pros treat their rackets when they committed errors. And there are the in-betweens who do not care much about how a fishing rod should look or feel, as long as they catch fishes. Then, what's a custom fishing rod?

Cheers,

Anthony Lee

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Russ Pollack (---.mclnva23.covad.net)
Date: December 03, 2008 01:57AM

Mike B - spot on, and well said.

My goodness, what a great thread!

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2008 01:58AM by Russ Pollack.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Mike Barkley (---.try.wideopenwest.com)
Date: December 03, 2008 02:16AM

Yep, it's a great thread and very informative as long as we don't take it as a mandate on what makes the "best" custom rod!! What's best for one certainly isn't best for everyone The future of custom rods certainly will NOT be determined by any one type or method of rod.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Raymond Adams (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: December 03, 2008 02:36AM

I'm definately a perfomance oriented "THREAD HEAD" and have no doubt
that there is plenty of room for both. I look forward to pushing the envelope
in both directions as my knowledge & skills allow.

That my 2 cents.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2008 02:37AM by Raymond_Adams.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Alex Dziengielewski (---.scana.com)
Date: December 03, 2008 10:46AM

That's where the competitive advantage lies for the custom builder... every one can be and is different - and that's what the production manufacturers can't do at this point - produce unique pieces tailored for a customer. Sometimes our customers aren't even anglers. It's the wife of an angler who's buying it for Xmas or Bday.

I know the buzz on bass rods is "technique specific", but I prefer to refer to my rods as "angler specific". I believe this is more appropriate and what I really am buiilding. I try to balance the needs of how that angler intends to use the rod (technique) with what he wants or needs (handle material, colors, etc). This creates a unique piece that is designed for him/her.

We're all going the same way... just taking different rods, oops roads, to get there.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Steve Rushing (---.north-highland.com)
Date: December 03, 2008 11:17AM

As I inch closer to my 6th decade of fishing I've seen a lot of improvements in all gear, including rods. What I've come to understand as a constant among the better/best anglers regardless of the "gear period" is that one of, if not the most, important pieces of gear is the angler's knowledge of and confidence in what they are are fishing and how they are fishing it. I think this confidence amplifies many other attributes necessary for success (however that's defined by the angler). For example, sensitivity improves not only because of all the technical properties of the new rod design but also the angler's concentration because he/she understands and just as importantly believes that the rod is more sensitive. I've had a number of occasions where I've replicated an old favorite. Even after advising the customer that there are better alternatives they are insistent that they want their old rod back - they want their old confidence back. (Interestingly they usually get the best of both worlds. For example, even if I use the same style, size and layout of the old guides but upgrade to lighter frame material they get a "better" rod). This is why I see my role as a custom builder to primarily be a problem solver for my customers. As I said earlier, knowing the factors that improve performance allows me to make informed decisions. This incldues how certain compromises degrade performance. And if these compromises are both reasonable (never want to build a dog) and simutaneously helps solve the prime problem which when solved gives the customer the confidence they have the "right" rod.

As a little side note, as to market and marketing I'm of the opinion that an issue that we as custom builders, along with our factory friends, face is a shrinking overall market. Statistics from USFWS-WSFR National Survey:

"Fishing - Fishing continues to be a favorite pastime in the United States. In 2006, 13% of the U.S. population 16 years old and older spent an average of 17 days fishing. Comparing results of the 2001 and 2006 Surveys finds that the number of anglers declined 12% and overall fishing expenditures stayed about level - the 4% increase was not statistically significant at the 5 percent level.

From 1991 to 2006, the number of all anglers declined 16% and expenditures increased 18%. The number of saltwater anglers decreased 15% and the number of freshwater anglers declined 18%." (http://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/Subpages/NationalSurvey/15_year_trend.htm)

There are obviously a large number of factors contributing to this trend that we as builders can not influence. However, one thing that we can do imo is to promote how we provide a product that improves the fishing fun-factor experience for both recreational and competitive/OCD anglers. As an example I always like the threads and pictures of rods built for that special kid. Rods that have lots of embellishments that might distract from performance - a tad - but are so cool it makes the kid put down the WII controller and go fishing (some that come to mind are Billy V's inlaid grips).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2008 11:25AM by Steve Rushing.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Mike Barkley (---.try.wideopenwest.com)
Date: December 03, 2008 11:17AM

Exactly, Alex!!!!! Well said

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: matthew jacobs (---.248.31.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net)
Date: December 03, 2008 11:20AM

Raymond_Adams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm definately a perfomance oriented "THREAD HEAD"
> and have no doubt
> that there is plenty of room for both. I look
> forward to pushing the envelope
> in both directions as my knowledge & skills
> allow.
>
> That my 2 cents.


My thoughts exactly. I prefer not to get bogged down in weaving and inlays I do like to do a little pattern work from time to time. I cast big top water plugs all day and want a rod that is light but also stout enough to handle brully saltwater fish. It's a balancing act that we must perform.
I guess I'm just simple.

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Re: Monday Monarchys
Posted by: Michael Joyce (---.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
Date: December 03, 2008 07:07PM

.......delete....and thanks.

NERB that types with a bar of Ivory soap in his mouth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2008 11:29PM by Michael Joyce.

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