Mr. MJ it is with great reverance that I acknowledge the validity of your position in this matter. I fully understand that you spend endless hours with finite placement of many many many thread of wonderous pattern and color - topped with multiple coats of diamond clear expoxy finish for the enjoyment of your patronns. When are you going tell all that the primary purpose of all the beauty is a rail protection system to allow the rod to make a second trip to the boat!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2008 03:51PM by Bill Stevens.

......never.


It was covered in detail yet modified in Rodcrfter issue Voulume 4 #3.

Custom built rods will still have the same advantages (and disadvantages) they always have had over production models. Rodmakers will continue to find ways to do something different.

Everything can be improved and with the technological advances we will see in the next 10 years come to the civilian marketplace... may even find something that benefits rod building.

Remember after all major military operations there is a later boom in technology in the civilian marketplace. Got to find some where to sell all that stuff our tax dollars paid for the R&D on! We're already seeing it evolve in the medical field by learning how to treat new injuries and an increase in improved prosthetic limbs.

Oh John... take a look at the Shimano Calais 4x8 - it has a digital control circuit that stores energy to apply "intelligent" braking...

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AD

Bill, I thought you were saying the guides would save that much weight, thus my misunderstanding with the last post, adn that's why I used the weight of guide sets as an example. Teh first post was based on teh look of the rods you posted, which look exactly like the St. Croix's.

It's only a matter of time bfore one of you guys figure out you can Permaglos a reel directly to teh blank, thus saving teh maximum weight possible adn increasing sensitivity exponentially. Then all you need to do is work with a blank Manu to design a blank which comes out of teh oven with the butt thick enough so there is no need to add a grip at all (Bugs Bunny style). YOu'll then have teh ultimate in a fishing rod, the perfect functional rod which would weigh in at 1.25oz.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2008 03:48PM by Billy Vivona.

Billy want to have some fun - and I know you do - at the ICRBE try to corner Jason (St Croix), Rich Forhan with a few of the M&Ms nearby and see which actually came first - This is a lot simpler than the age old Chicken and The Egg problem. You would be quite surprised to see the original design drawings and the first date of order for the Swampland Split Grips. The production guys were not the first at the well for weight reduction and once again custom builders are laying more brick for rods of the future.

Split grips are only new on FW rods, they've been used for decades on SW rods. YOu guys are just a few years behind, but you're catching up. lol.

I don't think the micros would work too well on my stand-up tuna rods, Bay trolling rods, bay casting or spinning rods. The reels are just too big.

You go, HNIC!!!

Kevin Knox
NERBS Class of 2009



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2008 05:34PM by kevin knox.

WOW there is a lot of information in this string and all it does is make me wonder if maybe we are taking fishing a bit too serious. I still remember my first Zebco, and the first fish I caught with it. My grandfather was so proud. I have personally never worried much about the weight of my equipment. That being said I do try to use the lightest components available. I try to make all my rods pretty, and fishable. Well except for the ones I make for my best fishing buddy. He swears I dance around them waving some sort of animal sacrifice to put a "No Fish Jinx" on them.......I like to think its operator error

Kirk

Interesting read but you guys are just a little behind on the new reels! They are here, now and some are even pretty good deals. For example I have a new Daiwa Fuego spinning reel in transit the 2500 size - weight is 7.8 ounces. That is about 2 ounces lighter than an aluminum model and has a composit body and rotor. Not cheap I admit but not Steeze price either! The Shamino CH 50/51 is around 6 ounces and they are being closed out for under 200. There are lots of others so you do not have to pay a bunch for a lighter reel. I can vouch that they do make a large difference in use. My combos that weight 10 ounces or less are a joy to use and these are not on UL power rods. The good thing about lighter is that I have never found a reason that a heavier rod/reel is 'better". Without trying for the lightest weight possible I can get pretty light weight and yes I do find that the micro guides can make a big difference in performance. I swapped out size 6 alconites to size 4's on an old P9000 (or P7000 I forget?) and could tell a big difference. I admit this blank has a wet noodle tip but the smaller guides really perked it up. I think I can get close to an 8 ounce combo without going overboard and I am sure a number of folks have already broken that mark?

Bill S was on the money with one of his earlier posts in this thread about reel weight
The bits of the rod that rotate rather than be moved in location count for little in the rod casting dynamics equation.
The rotating reel spool counts hugely on account of its inertial issues at startup & momentum issues later in the cast........... but the frame is no biggie.
The weight of bits close to the hand (mostl;y rotating in the cast ), whilst they have little effect in the rod dynamic in the cast have a cumulative effect on a different set of muscles that means something over the length of a day .
Reel weight & thread art near the grip don't have a big impact on the dynamic of an individual cast.
Reel weight has negligible impact on sensitivity as its damping of vibration comes into play AFTER the finger on the reelseat / blank has received the message.
Just my 2C

I dropped thread art from my rods beyond the stripper 30 yrs ago................simple plain minimised wraps .
I purchased Magnesium alloy framed reels as soon as they came on the market..................for their physical impact on a long day.
I have always had the lightest spools I could afford on my baitcasters from the day I added 2 and 2 together on the dynamic at play there.
I respect the cost implications in reel weight minimisation & am subject to financial limitations like just about everyone else.

I can't see a level of thread art ever disappearing from custom or commercial rods ever.( outside the tournament fisheries ) & sponsors there are going to want to display a point of difference & bling there anyway ..........in the spin-off to commercial sales..............thats what sponsorship is all about at the end of the day.....................Hey.

If bling & colour & technology advances were not a part of the human psyche we would still be driving black T-models, such things are basic consumerism drivers................ and wouldn't we have fun in the parking lot finding our one.

Yep, composite body reels will be in my future................when a new resin family is developed and pultruding technology improved to provide greater rigidity in the alignment of the engineering components of reels , both externally and internally.
I have very few composite bodied reels in my quiver these days as I simply had too many problems with them , especially threadline reels.
The biggest problem being rigidity of the reelseat shaft in hot weather causing line misalignment in the bail roller when winding, resulting in line twist..

Read on, fish on & enjoy what you can afford.
Fishing & the gear we use is full of more compromises than life in general.
Understanding the compromise you are making & adapting to it is the key to optimising success & comfort in the choices you make.
To each his own.

DenisB

Kirk;
In many situations we may be taking "fishing a bit too serious"
After all it’s just fishing!

But in other situations there are those whose lively hoods are impacted by those who do take it too serious.

There are builders on this site; Bill Stevens, Bobby Feazel, Alex Dziengielewski, Rich Forhan. myself, and many others who build rods for anglers who are fishing for $50.000.00 to $100,00.00 a pop, and as far as they are concerned we could never take any improvement in performance too seriously regardless of how small that improvement may be.

You would be surprised to know how many of them that are sponsored by big name rod companies have unmarked custom rods lying on the decks of their boats.

It isn't just the ones fishing for 50-100 K. Sometimes it is just about pride and a little cash also. Every little edge you can get to have the bragging rights. Don't even say that I am being too competitive either.


Eric

Eric you nailed that... big fish in the little pond syndrome... there are also the "I only use custom rods" kinda guys. They also tend to have the biggest boat, best electronics, etc.

I think people are also more receptive to better equipment. Look at golf clubs. I could play with persimmon woods still and blades, but cavity backs and oversized heads are more forgiving and should help you perform better. Are they for everyone? No. Same with rods.

You didn't see fishing schools, golf schools, etc 20 years ago. Or at least not like you do today. People's time is at a premium anymore and many understand better tools do help net better results when used correctly.

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I appreciate the work put in by the MM team and have learnt from it. There is definitely a difference whether you fish for a living, for sports or just for pleasure. Asians mostly fish for pleasure and like me, have small hands and less overall power. For whatever reason we fish, the rod and reel package must also be comfortable in our hands, not only in weight and sentivity, but also image. I have heard many fellow builders in our local site boasting that form is out and they build strictly for functionality. Guess what, you don't see any fancy butt or guide wraps but you see large guides being used on light rods. To them, no art means better functionality. I have built many rods without thread art but they were all tastefully built to match those wonderful 500 bucks reels that weigh less than 6 oz.. I have also been using Fuji's Ti guides 4 and 3.5 for a long time and never realize that they are micro guides. Most of such guides have been used on fly rods for many years. We also build squid rods with such guides. I have started replacing my simple spiral guides from 6 to 4 and this really make a tremendous difference in the lighter bass rods. However, when it comes to preference, because guides from 3.5 to 6 are sold at the same price, most tend to prefer slightly bigger ones. For whatever reason my customer fishes, when I am approached to customize a rod, my main questions will be, for what purpose and which reel, brand and model, will be used.

Cheers

Great golf analogy Alex.

As long as the manufacturers can pass off mylar tape wraps and such as art and the Cabelas and BassPro's of the world sell the heck out of them, there will be decorative wraps. But if you look at the catalogs you'll see fewer and fewer "pro" rods with anything but the maker's logo and the rod spec decalled onto the butt area. Why? Because decals are cheaper than tape and the extra finish it requires.

Michael, I sort of agree with you but would offer this: for all the fine guns sold in the world, there's still a shortage of engravers to service the requirments of those who will spend the extra money to embellish the top-end pieces. As custom makers, we are already at the top end of the market, in every way that means anything: quality of build, innovative design and efficient layout, performance, and art (when the customer is willing to pay for it). There are still some customers who will pay for the extra art just as there are and always have been a certain number of gun and knife folks who will pay for the extra artwork on their pieces.

Not to worry. If you're lucky enough to be selling enough rods as well as taking care of your "real" job, you'll not have time to do the artwork anyway.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

I agree with Dennis & Russ.
Sure, there are going to be those users who are stricktly performance oriented
but there are also ALWAYS going to be those those who also must have some
sort or personalization and or "bling". It's in our nature as human beings to
be attracted to "pretty" things. Besides, the added weight of what ever bling
is put on an heavy fresh water or inshore (not to mention the really big stiks)
stik isn't going to effect that rod types perfomance one bit.

If we builders stop with the decorative wraps & other embelishments users
will just be applying there own "customizations". You can bet on it!

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..