A friend dropped the top half of a 9' spin rod used for salmon and steelhead. The tip top was broken off right at the base of the tube. He wants a new tip top installed, but also wants the tip top installed 4" down the rod, where the last single foot guide is now located. When I asked why, he pointed out that on longer distance hooks sets the rod feels too tippy and he feels he isn't getting a good hook set. He thinks shortening the rod by the 4" will allow for a slightly stronger hook set. Any thoughts on this change would be appreciated.

Jeff Shafer

He's correct
shortening up the tip will stiffen the rod, but may also shorten his casting range a bit

Jeff,
Your friend is probably right. Both Salmon and Steelhead have hard mouths plus they do not normally, when in fresh water swallow lures, so they are usually hooked in the hard part of their mouths. Plus there is a reason that they are called Steelhead. Shortening your friends rod by 4 inches will result in it having more power but with a 4 inch a shorter rod he will lose a little leverage. It is difficult to say whether he will actually get a better hood set or not. I think that if the rod has a relatively fast action the increased power will more than offset the loss in leverage but if the rod is a more moderate action then he might actually lose a little in hook setting ability by cutting 4 inches off of the rod. There is something else that he might want to try if he is not already and that is using a braided line. Personally I do not like the braided lines but there is no question that because they have so much less stretch they will give him a better hook set.

Your friend is wrong - good hook sets are about how quickly, how much and how far you move the line. A shorter rod will not move it as fast nor as far. A longer rod, even a softer one, is more effective at setting the hook than a shorter, albeit stouter rod.

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Tom is spot-on. If I were really being arrogant I'd say the guy needed to learn to use the longer style rod better. But I try not to be arrogant so I;ll just say that even a noodle rod will nicely hook a salmon or steely if done properly. Most of the charter skippers in that area will just sbout throw you off the boat after you lose the third or fourth fish because you're trying to set the hook as though you were a BASS pro.

Braided lines will only aggravate the situation if the guy thinks a shorter, stiffer rod is the answer. You're substituting one kind of mistake for another. I know these are big, tough fish but a hard hookset will simply rip the hook out before it is properly set. It only takes a bit of a lift and a flick of the wrist - not a whole lot more.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

Tom's right
the power gain at the strike is negligible from shortening the rod
The shortened rod will also not handle light lures as well as before.
Your friend will get more benefit from making sure his hooks are sharp with a hone.
The best test is scraping your thumb nail with the point
If it doesn't immediately bite into your thumbnail and scrape a thin line in your nail rather than just skid
............it ain't sharp enough
Surprising how much difference it makes once the hook will bite your thumbnail with light pressure.

You'll be losing more to gain very little by chopping 4" off the tip. As pointed out, even when using braid, moving that line quickly, getting any stretch out of the system, and getting good, sustained pressure is the key to getting a good hookset. Sharp hooks are also essential.

The way I see it is not to try and drive it all the way in, in one shot (hammer and nail), but more to punch the point in and slide it the rest of the way home (like a thumbtack or pushpin).

Lots of stuff here - this may not be a place for a simple one sentence reply that covers all bases.

No order of priority

Top knotch anglers have an understanding of all -

There are several different methods of hook set utilized -

Partial List of Things That Apply

Species of fish (If you slam home a hook on a paper mouth slab crappie you might not eat too well)
Length of rod
Stiffness of rod
Action of rod
Line type and wt
Length of line out (anglers using braid for short hook ups use a moderate action blank)
Lure or bait type - imbedded or exposed hook
Presentation - moving, jerk, stationary
Size, type and sharpness of hook or hooks
Timing of hook set and angler skill

Consideration should be given to all.

For most rods a four inch tip chop will greatly change the entire performance.

I live in the heart of Salmon and Steelhead country and have fished them all of my life and have caught countless Steelhead and Salmon. They have hard mouths that require a hard hook set except when you are using herring or other baits, typically in salt water, that they take deeper in their mouths. But much of the Salmon and Steelhead fishing is done in fresh water with artificial lures which they very rarely ever take deeply into their mouths or swallow. If you examine the inside of their mouths it is obvious that their mouths are very tough and the hook is almost never ripped from their mouths due to excessive force being applied to the hook set.
Hook setting is a question of how much force is applied at the hook. Braided line because it does not stretch will result in more of the force applied by the fisherman getting to the hook. Stiffer rods will also result in more of the force applied by the fisherman getting to the hook. Longer rods will also result in more of the force applied by the fisherman getting to the hook however long, lighter rods that have slow actions are in affect shorter due to the way they flex when force is applied.
I think that someone who suggests that maybe they are being arrogant is in fact being arrogant when they come from an area of the country where there are no Salmon or Steelhead and presumes to tell people from Salmon and Steelhead country the type of rod they should use and how they should set the hook.

I would like to add something to the post I made above. There are a number of different species of Salmon and different strains within these species. There are also different strains of Steelhead even though a Steelhead is genically identical to Rainbow Trout. Steelhead are basically Rainbow Trout that go to the ocean for usually 1, 2 or 3 years. A very wide variety of techniques are used in fishing for Salmon and Steelhead and as a result a very wide variety of rods used from very short very stout rods to very long and soft rods. Even within the species of Salmon that is most persued, Chinook, there are a wide variety of strains. Almost anything that is said about the type of rod used can be either correct or incorrect depending upon where one is fishing and the particular technique being used. But all of the species and strains within the species have relatively hard mouths, harder than most other type of fish.

Thanks everyone,
The rod owner has agreed to keeping the rod at full length.

Jeff

Does the tip section really have that much to do with hooksetting? Seems to me the section of the rod where the curve stops and the straight starts is where the hookset would initiate - then again I could be just dreaming.

A lot of things happen when you suddenly sweep the rod into a hookset. Obviously, any slack or bow due to water resistance, etc., has to be taken up and any stretch or give in the system also has to be overcome. Generally, the farther you can move the rod tip, the more quickly all this takes place and the more slack, bow, stretch, etc., can be overcome.

It really doesn't matter too much if the tip is soft - the line still begins moving as you begin that sweep. With a short stout rod, you often never get to use the rod's power to put a hook in the fish's mouth because you were out of line movement before you even got all the slack, bow, stretch, etc., out of the way. With a longer rod, you get past all that and actually move the hook and then some.

Anyone that is having trouble with setting the hook or having fish jump or headshake the hook loose should first look into using a longer rod rather than a stiffer rod. Nine times out of ten, a rod just a few inches longer will solve your problem.

Good hooksetting technique doesn't hurt either - begin able to detect the strike and quickly dropping the rod, recoving slack and then setting the hook will do wonders as well.

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Tom,
When a rod flexes energy is momentarily stored in the rod in the form of kinetic energy and that results in less force at the hook. In other words, if the rod flexes then part of the energy that the fisherman applys goes into the rod and not to the hook. As the rod straightens and then the motion damps out part of the energy stored in the rod will get to the hook but later and part of the energy will be converted from kinetic energy to heat. Even ignoring the issue of lost leverage, the more the rod flexes the less force at the hook.

Yes, I'm well aware.

Nonetheless, in many cases the angler is simply in need of recovering slack line in which case there is very little flex of the rod, even a soft power rod, until the line is tight and the hook hits something solid, at which point all is well. With a shorter, albeit stouter rod, or whatever, if the sweep is completed before all the "give" in the system is taken up, you won't have much chance of obtaining a solid hookset.

Again, if you're having trouble setting the hook or having a fish throw your hook when jumping or head shaking, try a longer rod rather than a stouter rod. Trust me on this. The only downside is snapping the line. Those who have not used longer rods often aren't prepared for the tremendous impact imparted when setting the hook, even with only a wrist flip on the hookset. A longer rod generates a tremendous amount of speed and momentum at the hook - you can really hurt a fish with just a flick of the wrist.

Solid hooksets are not about power, they are about having the right equipment and the proper technique. Salmon and Steelhead may have tough mouths, but they are softies compared to marlin, swordfish, jacks, etc. Anything else is a breeze.

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Tom,
I was raised in Salmon and Steelhead country and have fished them for over 50 years and until the last couple of years, most years, I would catch about 100 Steelhead a year and almost that many Salmon a year. I have used almost every conceivable length, power and action of rod depending mainly upon the technique used. Plus I know, am friends with and have fished with some of the best Salmon and Steelhead fishermen in the world so frankly I think that it is a little presumptious of you when you make comments like "trust me on this" and "having the right equipment and technique".
I will say again, any time the rod is flexing it is absorbing energy that is not getting to the hook and it is not a question of taking the slack out of the line. Using most techniques, Salmon and Steelhead bite very softly and are very quick to spit out the lure plus part of the fishermans ability to feel the bite is a function of the tension on the line. If there is slack in the line fishing Salmon and Steelhead you will not feel them and will not catch many.

Emory;
With all do respect! (and I sincerely mean that!)
Your previous post has got to be one of the most hypocritical statements you've ever posted

I respect the fact that you have fished this species for 50 years, and catch 100 or so salmon every year.

But any time a person even with even a little bit of experience makes the statement that;
"Having the right equipment and technique", will improve on results.
And you want to dismiss it as "a little presumptuous” you are out of line, incorrect, and show how much you have yet to learn

You may also want to consider that when poster's on this board who have bass fished for decades and catch 1000- 2000 bass a year, having also had the privilege of sharing and gaining info from some of the top professional bass anglers in the world. Post info about technique specific rods, results, benefits, drawbacks, what works and what doesn't and you dismiss it as silly or unimportant that you are being guilty of what you seek to accuse Mr. Kirkman of

Even when you are fishing with "tension in the line" especially in a moving water river systems were salmon are found. Unless you are fishing directly up stream of the currant there is bow in you line (slack under tension) that has to be taken up for and effective hook set to take place.

I feel like I'm at a tennis match - and I understand what both Emory and Tom are talking about. What I don't understand is Steve's statement "Unless you are fishing direct;y upstream of the currant there is a bow in your line (slack under tension)" . . . . unless this was a typo, casting upstream "will" put slack in the line, that's why I only cast across or slightly downstream. Even with no line slack, I know when I set the hook the rod is going to absorb some of the power during the stroke. And I don't think Emory deserves the beating . . . .

Tim;
You are CORRECT thank you
I meant unless you are upstream casting down stream there is always a bow in the line even when there is tension on it,

Emory,

I am not talking about feeling them, but setting the hook. And, you can indeed feel fish when you have a bow (not the same thing as slack) in the line because the water holds it in tension. I feel most of my strikes this way. I believe this is what Steve is talking about.

Because I have worked with so many fishermen over the years - I owned a shop - and because I helped so many with fish fighting techniques with things such as how to properly and easily set the hook, I know that a longer rod helps most fishermen do better in this regard. The only downside is that the longer rod generates so much more speed and then impact on the set, you can break a line if you're not careful. The advent of the stronger braids negates this to a great degree.

Proper equipment and good technique are indeed what is required to easily and securely set the hook. I cannot imagine that improper equipment and poor technique could possible be better in any regard. A shorter rod is never better at setting a hook than a longer one because you cannot move the line as far. The flex of the rod plays very little role because by the time the fish is hit and there is something there to impact and really flex the rod, the line and hook are already moving at good speed. The result at that point is a foregone conclusion.


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