when spining a multi piece fly rod, do you assemble the rod before finding the spine or do you spine each piece and then assemble?

If you want to find the overall spine, locate it for each section individually and then assemble the sections and check again. The spine is an effect, not a thing, so once assembled the overall spine will have moved just a tad due to the overlap of the ferrules.

If you want to build on the straightest axis and disregard the spine, as most do, you would likewise find the straightest axis for each section and then assemble them.

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hey tom,

how do you find the straightest axis? i received your rod building guide yesterday and read probably half of it last nite. the section on the spine kind of confused me. it is however a great wealth of information.

The chapter on spine pointed out why the spine doesn't matter - you cannot use it to prevent rod twist as so many authors believed and stated over the years. Only guide orientation can do that.

You can simply sight down each section and choose the straightest axis, or put each piece on your lathe/wrapper and support each section at one end, with supports just a few inches apart. Put something at the other end, just past the section, to use as a reference point. Rotate the section and you will see the far end travel in a circle. When the section end reaches the top of that circle, you're on the straightest axis.

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it's kind of hard for me to see what you are saying because this is my first rod and i havent actually done any of this yet. i just assembled my wrapper last nite. i'm going to assume that i will see what you are saying when i get started. now, that being said, when my far end reached the top of the circle i will be on the straightest axis and i should mount my guides on that (top) side in the wrapper? also, if you dont mind me asking, why do people go to the trouble of finding the spine if it really doesnt matter'?

thanks

brandon

Because they read unsubstantiated information and just assumed that it must be fact. You can prove to yourself that it isn't, however, by putting your rod into an actual fishing type situation. With a free turning device, you can mount your rod, run a line through the guides and apply a load to the line. I will guarantee you that regardless of where you orient the spine, once a load is applied to the line, the rod will turn until the guides face the direction the load is coming from. This will remain true no matter where you orient the spine. And... this is how we fish - with a line running through guides that have been bound to the rod blank. This is what the chapter in the Amato book used photographs to depict.

Picture how the rod will be when fished. On a fly rod, your guides will be on the bottom of the rod (thus it will be inherently stable under load from a fish no matter where you orient the spine). I would assemble the rod along the straightest axis and build it that way. On a fly rod, your guides will go on the bottom of the rod when you have the tip "high." You will also find this maximizes the power to weight ratio available from any particular blank.

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ok that sounds good. so i put the piece in my wrapper and i rotate it until the end reaches the top of the circle then i mount the guides on the side of the blank that is facing me from the wrapper? sorry for all the dumb questions but i'm trying to get this straight in my head.

On a fly rod, the guides go on the bottom of the rod - towards the water. So when you have the rod in the fishing position, with the tip at the top of the circle, the guides will be on the other side, the bottom side.

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yes i understand that but what i'm refering to is the process you gave me in this thread where i put it in the wrapper and rotate it until the tip reaches the top of the circle. when i have the rod rotated to the top of the circular movement do i mount the guides there (on the topside facing me opposite of the v block bottom)or on the bottom side of the blank (the side resting against the bottom of the v block)?

If the blank is not perfectly straight, there will be a bow in it with the tip and the but up and the "belly" down. Place the guides on the bottom of the belly so that when looking down the rod, it's straight

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

hello mike,

that's what i was looking for. laying in v blocks, the ends of the blank will be high with a belly in between. i will mount the guides on the bottom side of the belly (convex side). right?

thanks guys



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2008 10:24AM by brandon edwards.

Hi Brandon,
Don't get too hung up on the spine thing. I know what you're saying about Chapter 4, in Tom's book. To me it clearly states, that, while spine is not important for rod stability, it is a very important thing to consider in terms of castability and fish fighting. Keep in mind that Tom did not do the final edit on that book. So, it probably contains a few thing that he would like to change. All in all, the book is very helpful--if you just disregard Chapter 4. When I build a fly or spinning rod, I assemble all the pieces so that their natural curves (if there are any) all follow the same line. I then set the assembled blank so that it curves up (belly of curve down). This establishes the "top dead center", if you will. Mount the reel seat and handle accordingly (so that reel will sit at "bottom dead center"). Then, when you place, wrap, and finish your guides, the weight will tend to "straighten" the curve. Also, with the curve set on the same axis as the casting arc, you will achieve the rod's maximum accuracy.
Hope this helps.
Have fun!
George

I don't think anyone needs to disregard that chapter - it's quite helpful in understanding what causes rods to twist, which was its intended purpose.

Keep in mind that when it first appeared, the editor of a competing magazine went out of his way to state that in it I had said that "spine isn't important." So I think the information in that chapter is put across pretty well, even with the publisher not being entirely comfortable with all that I wrote. No other rod building book authors, other than Gene Bullard, had ever played down the supposed role of the spine in custom rod building.

Otherwise I think Mike and George have given you great advice. Remember, most commercial rods are built on the straightest axis. Often this is so the customer sees a straight rod when he sights down it, usually holding the guides straight up or straight down. But as George said, the weight of the guides tend to straighten the rod when positioned in this way and you get the most power in use against the fish or the strike.

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george,

sorry guys but i'm still having trouble grasping this. let me ask this as simply as possible. if you draw an upside down letter "u" on a piece of paper to represent an exaggerated rod curve, would the guide and reel seat go on the top (outside) or on the bottom (inside) of the letter "u"?

thanks for your patience!

Oops!!!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2008 11:28AM by Mike Barkley.

Try also rolling each section on a flat surface like your kitchen table. When and if the ends come up that is the top of the blank. The guides go on the side touching the table. I mark that with a piece of tape around the blank. Then look at it usually in the sunlight, and see if it looks good.

Brandon,
You had it right in your previous post. If the rod's curve is representented by a "u", the guides and the seat go at the outside of the "u".

I think what many beginners who read Tom’s book find confusing is that he does NOT tell them where to put the spine!

All the other rod building books are very specific on where you MUST locate the guides in relation to the spine. Tom’s book pretty much tells you it is not that important and that there is no wrong or right place to put it. Then he suggests two or three locations where you can put it and go out and try it for yourself. But he does not dictate where it MUST go because there is no such location.

Honestly I thought this really broke new ground and was refreshing. But to a beginner who is dying to have someone tell him exactly where the spine and the guides MUST be placed, I can see where it could be confusing when the author completely leaves out something that you had assumed was very important. Some will understand why it was left out but others probably did not.

great thanks george

ken's right on with his take on a beginner's potential perplexation (perplexion? utter confusion!) when reading tom's book. as a former (and still-somewhat) beginner, i just wanted to read WHERE DO I PLACE THE GUIDES? possibly part of modern instant gratification in society, laziness, or acceptance of being a student and being used to that role reinforced throughout the years formf ormal schooling, wanting to hear from someone how exactly to accomplish something. i wouldn't call tom's approach refreshing, to me, but certainly different and after time, i can understand why he took that approach. it's just tough for a beginner working on his or her own.

perhaps you can have a sit-down with someone in your area brandon, and have them walk you through the process. just make sure they're up on the philosophy and practicality shared here.

for a fly rod, bottom, outside, convex side of a U. lol

eric
fresno, ca.