I am mostly a newbie to rod building. I have read so many rod building books this year. Only one says the spine is not really important. All the others say that it is. Some say to use large ID guides some say to use small. There is differing opinions on all this.

a year back I had the priveledge to talk to a Mr. Steve Rajef of GLoomis who is an interational casting champion. We talked about rod design and I asked him questions. He said his Tournament rods are set so the guides are on the straightest portion of the blank not the spine. He said that he and the other competitors mostly use very large diameter guides and very few of them. He said they do not care what the ring material is and that hard chrome is as good as any ceramic for distance. What he is doing as a tournament champion is different from what the rod builders say to do. Who is right???? Does it really make any differnce???

Hi Joseph,

Actual fishing is a different world than a casting contest.

I build mostly bass casting and walleye spinning rods. I think you will find that most people here will say build on the straightest axis. Most will also say to use the New Guide Concept as outlined here: [www.rodbuilding.org]

And also look here for static guide placement: [www.rodbuilding.org]

I would say that this site is probably the best source for consistently accurate info.

Chuck

Note: I am certainly not disrespecting Mr. Steve Rajef by my last line. I simply meant that you'll get great info here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2008 08:34PM by Chuck Mills.

Steve Rajef's credentials are top rated in many categories and his accomplishments for G Loomis are numerous. His work with fly rod blanks is legendary. I think if your were very specific about one particular rod with your questions to him, say a mag bass rod for pitching finesse worms into heavy cover, his reply would not detail very few large rings guides on a baitcast rod nor would he ever bring up the spine in the conversation first. We should remember the old addage when trying to communicate - apples to apples helps a lot!

Yes it does make a difference.

Let me preface what I’m about to say by stating that Steve Rajeff is one of the finest tournament casters, both in regards to distance and accuracy, in history. His records and tournament wins prove it. And, he has been the head blank designer for G. Loomis, Inc. for many, many years now. He has access to software and machinery that most custom rod builders would consider extravagant.

In other words, he knows a few things about fishing rods.

On the issue of spine, it won’t really matter either in distance or accuracy. I know that Steve builds all his rods on the straightest axis. So does G. Loomis on their factory rods. Distance is really a matter of good casting technique and having the optimum power for the load being applied. That can mean that a particular axis might be the best to build on. Sometimes that might indeed be the spine (softest axis) and others times it might be a completely different axis. It all depends on the amount of power needed for the amount of load being applied. But again, Steve’s rods are built on the straightest axis. He doesn’t worry beyond that because in truth there is very little power difference between the softest and stiffest axis, and all those in-between.

As far as accuracy is concerned, rod twist is determined by guide placement (lever arm effect) but even if the rod twists, it’s doing so around a central axis so accuracy isn’t affected. I proved this to myself with a mechanical casting machine some years ago. I will tell you what certainly does affect accuracy - a badly warped or curved blank with the warp or curve off to the side of the casting plane. It means the tip will travel in a bit of an arc and the lure will go in the direction the tip was traveling at the moment of release, which won’t be in the intended casting direction. I’d bet that Steve hand selects blanks that are pretty darn straight. I would, if I had that option. I don’t mind a gentle overall curve (and would build on the straightest axis) but don’t like rods with sudden crooks and that sort of thing. I doubt the tournament guys do either.

Ring material? There isn’t really that much friction between the line and the guide ring surface on the cast. Friction is determined not only by contact between surfaces, but by the force pressing those surfaces against each other. When casting, there isn’t much force pressing the line against the ring surface. I’d agree with him that you’re as apt to cast as far with a hard chrome ring as you are with a super slick SIC ring. Just remember - all they do with these rods is cast, not fish.

Number of guides? Well, consider that what makes for the longest casts may not make for the best fishing rod. Tournament casting rods excel at casting, not necessarily fishing. However, using fewer guides certainly helps if all you want to do is cast a long distance. It could be hindrance, however, in an actual fishing situation.

Larger rings? Well, I tend to feel that smaller rings and higher frames, at least near the butt, are better. And some newer guides and guide systems have come along in the past few years that may eventually be embraced by the tournament casting people. But I can’t and won’t tell you that Steve is absolutely wrong here - as I said, he knows something about fishing rods and can cast one heck of a lot further and with much greater accuracy that I can.

Tournament casters at Steve’s level strive for every possible advantage so the top competitors have carefully considered these things. What I would do if I were you, is get out there and mock up a rod and try some different set ups and see what you like. At the minimum you’ll have fun and at the maximum you’ll learn a few things for yourself that you can carry with you throughout your rod building career. And keep in mind that fishing is about more than just casting, for most of us.


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Joseph - don't know quite where to start. Email me directly and we'll start with some of the stuff we've learned over the years. Too much for the bandwidth here, but we can email or talk by phone as you choose.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2008 10:51PM by Russ Pollack.

JOSEPH,
Tournament casting isn't FISHING, it is CASTING...

Seperate the two before you decide to build your rod.

There are great guys on this site. You will always be well advised.

Paul

I fish therefore I am.
www.hookeduprods.com

Thanks. I have to respect Steves ability and equipment because he has the records to back up his ways of doing things. I just wondered if all this other stuff really made any difference because if it did then surely he would be doing things the way the custom rod builders do. I get the difference between just casting and fishing. I think I can go ahead and will just use a few more guides to spread things out and go with ceramics so the guides do not groove and have to be replaced. Not sure about guide sizes but will play around some and see what works out. I had read here about the micro guides but notice the tournament casting guys do not use them.

Steve Rajeff is also a custom rod builder, and has been for many years. Like most of us, he has his own opinions and ways of doing things. Obviously he is doing something right, although his casting skill and ability have as much or more to do with his casting championships as his tackle does.

...............

If the micro guides are so good why do the tournament casters not use them??? They must know about them they do not live in a cave. Just trying to understand.

What is best for casting (tournament) may not be very good for fishing and vice/versa. Distance casting, In my opinion, is not a factor on fishing. (maybe in surf fishing! but not in general and sensitivity, fighting ability have no bearing on tournament casting. Apples/Oranges. You have to let the type/use of the rod determine the set up.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

The idea is to keep dead weight on the blank to a bare minimum. With a rod that you'll use for actual fishing situations, you're going to need more guides that what the tournament casters use. So, you need to try and use the smallest and lightest guides that will still perform the required tasks.

The tournament casters often use non-ceramic guides in one effort to reduce weight. And, they use the smallest number of guides that they can get away with. This is another effort to reduce dead weight on the blank.

Keep in mind, too, that many of things we do as custom rod builders don't make a lot of difference by themselves. At least until you start adding them up. A little thing here on guide size, another thing there on weight, another thing there on balance, etc., etc., and eventually they all come together to result in a rod that performs better and is more pleasing to fish with than what you can buy off the rack.

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Is there any event in competition casting where the person is required to place an 1/8 ounce lure into a full coffee cup of water at a distance of 25 feet without any of the water being splashed out of the cup or the lure height above the surface of the water is not to exceed eight inches. When the lure is taken by the quarry the blank will be required to dead lift a 10 lb bass and two pounds of grass and not allow the fish to swim laterally or down. Mr. Rajeff fully understands this and would not use one of his competion sticks for this task - just like Dale Earnheart would not enter Daytona with a Saturday Nite Demolition Derby Wreck!

Micro guide rods are presently in the developmental stage by custom builders only and their construction and use is not on the economics plate of production builders. Think aout it .. look at the production rods on the store shelves for bass fishermen - did you notice that they now have split grips and no foregrips and some even are spiral wrapped - they were not there two years ago - we could probably find negative posts on interet boards about those features that are now quite common. There are advantages to micros under very specific conditions of use - take the time and do the work and you will probably end up trying a few.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2008 09:16PM by Bill Stevens.