Just wondering if anyone still uses standard V frame (SV style) guides as butt guides for FW spinning rods, and have any tips for reducing line slap with them.

They are one of the few styles that you can still get gold frames in, which I get a lot of requests for.

Thanks,
Marc

If you use graphite tubing and offset the handle so the blanks if offset against the top of the tubing. You can gain about 3/16" to 3/8" additional clearance between the reels spool and the blank helping to eliminate some of the slap.

Delete!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2008 05:57PM by Bill Stevens.

We've found that line slap can be reduced by doing two things:

1) Use a bigger guide (for example, the stripper guide on our 7' SW trout rods is generally a 40mm)

2) Get the proper spacing between the face of the reel and the guide itself. You'll have to experiment with this one, because the proper spacing is also determined by the angle of the spool, the height of the reel stem, and even the weight of line you're using.

But, it's not rocket science. Start by placing the stipper 18" from the face of the reel. Do the rest of your layup with tape or rubber bands or whatever you use, and test cast the rod. If you've got no line slap, you're done. If you get some, then try moving the stipper back and forth in 1/4" or 1/2" increments until you eliminate the slap. We've had some end up at 16" and some end up at 22". There's no one formula that's going to do it every time.

BTW, no rod leaves our shop until you can't hear or see any line slap.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

I believe Sevier still makes a gold high framed "M" style guide also.

You know, this seems overly obvious, but it helped me:

I built a surf rod a few years back, and because of the layout, I was very concerned about line slap. So I was careful during building to make sure that the line stayed off the blank while casting. I finished the rod and fished with it for a few months, and all was well with the world.

Then, at the beginning of a new fishing season, I respooled my reel with new mono, and on my first cast, I noticed that the line was slapping against the blank so hard I though the finish was going to come off. I forget what brand it was, but it turned out that I had respooled with a different brand of mono, and it was way different than the line I had used for tests when I built the rod. I dumped the new line, and respooled with the old brand, and the slap disappeared.

This may not help you much. But some different brands of mono perform much, much differently, and you may be able to eliminate line slap by trying another brand.

Line slap is caused by guides that are too low, rings that are too large, or improper placement.

More height will help reduce line slap on the cast. Smaller rings, when the frame height is high enough, will also help reduce line slap on the cast.

If the guide is too close, or too far from the feel face, you will have line slap.

Reels with large spools are more apt to create line slap than reels with smaller spools. And with very large diameter spools and heavy line, it is very common to have slap upon a non-loaded retrieve.

...................

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Reels with large spools are more apt to create
> line slap than reels with smaller spools. And with
> very large diameter spools and heavy line, it is
> very common to have slap upon a non-loaded
> retrieve.
>
> ...................

Tom, I have seen you post something similar to this before and am curious. I know it is probably just marketing, but what is the deal with some of the new large diameter spinning reel spools offered by BPS, etc. They tout them as casting longer and reducing coils, etc.??

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

I remember when all spinning reels had rather large diameter spools, way back in the 1960's and 1970's. Then, along came the long, small diameter spools and all the companies touted them as contributing to longer, smoother casts, with no large line coils to create problems.

Now they're back to larger diameter spools and touting the same things they did when they had first moved to the smaller spools about 20 years ago.

...............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reels with large spools are more apt to create
> line slap than reels with smaller spools. And with
> very large diameter spools and heavy line, it is
> very common to have slap upon a non-loaded
> retrieve.
>
> ...................

I never thought of it quite this way. I should have, but I didn't. Sometimes the things you miss are the most obvious.

This makes sense, though, because the setups that give me the most headaches with line slap are indeed large spools - they're Alvey surf rigs. Alvey reels are big -- 6 to 7 inches in diameter -- and are cast like a giant spinning reel. On a couple of Alvey rods I've built, it took a boatload of tinkering to get a guide setup that was OK for casting and fish-fighting, and didn't result in line slap. High-framed guides help here immensely.

Since you mentioned Alvey, you brought back memories. The reels, as you post, were humongous in diameter. The guide placement was unique to say the least. The first was halfway from the reel spool to the tip and had to be at least a 50mm; the next was halfway between this one and the tip and was a 40mm. The next was halfway from this guide to the tip top and was a 30. The next was halfway from this one and the tip and was a 20. Then the tiptop.

An extremely large swivel was mandatory to prevent the line twist. So much for large diameter reels.

Oh, the good ole bad ole daze. C2

Charlie;
That is an interesting set up, kind of makes sense also, just each guide naturally progressing closer to that last as you get closer to the tip.

Has anyone experimented with this set up on rods with more normal sized reels with each successive guide being 1/2 the distance of the remainder of the blank to tip?

If so what were your results if you don't mind sharing?

Tom,
Thanks for that insight. Being relatively young all I have ever fished with was the narrow spool stlye spinning reels, i just never could wrap my head around any real reason to make a spool dia. larger.....nice to know it is just marketing.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

Scott,
I have purchased several of these large spool diameter reels and they are by far my favorite reels.
The large diameter spool does several things:
1. The large spool means that the line has larger loops, and thus less line memory.
2. The large spool means that there are fewer total coils for a given cast - compared to a smaller diameter spool.
3. The larger spool seems to give much more resistance to line digging into the under laiying layers of line.
4. When doing distance casting - casting to a remote school of fish, the 30-40 inches of line retreive per turn really reduces the total number of crank rotations, compared to a smaller spool having a line retrrive of 20-25 inches.

----------
I do find that with the larger diameter reel spool, that the line coils are a bit larger as well. I therefore find that the best action of rod and reel is such that the maximum distance with a stripper guide of 30-35 size.
I find that if I use the same blank, built with a 20 or 25 size guide- that the larger spool and reel tends to cause a bit of line choking on the cast.
If using a light power braid - the choking action is reduced compared to a bit stiffer mono line.

So - in my opinion, the large spool diameters reel do have some excellent advantages and very few - if any - disadvantages.

Take care
Roger

p.s.
i.e.
using the large diameter spool reels with the correct rod.

I remember seeing some of the Mitchell Wedding Cake reels back in the late 60's with the stacked reelspools and line guides, they were used for competition and long cast fishing needs.

Done a lot of work with the good old Alvey
Have 6 -7 in my quiver.
A lot of the high speed imagery referred to in my earlier posts on rod dynamics was dome with Alveys as well as conventional reels.
Alvey's are rather unique reels as they are a hybrid spinning/centerpin reel with a locking pivoting mechanism between the reel seat and the reel itself.
Several versions of Drag available in most sizes
- direct drive no drag
- direct drive with selectable drag on/off
- conventional drag setup between handle & spool.
- centerpin retrieve and pivot to enable spincast.
Very simple & popular for surf & rock fishing.
Spools were originally wood but now are pultruded moulded fibreglass & even the frame is now available in pultruded fibreglass.

The large diameter of the spool ( up to 7.5" ) generates a very large amplitude spiral wave form in the line during the cast.
In the larger sizes a level of line slap is unavoidable.
The compromise in casting function is with stripper guides of #25 to choke the wave form from the spool & smaller running guides & a level of line slap that is acceptable. The wave form of the line with larger strippers ( and in the early days these were wire guides of about #80)
transmits to guides up the guide train & line slap between those guides too.
The highspeed imagery identitied that the best compromise was a stripper of about #25 and a "tamed" wave form in the running guides & restricting line slap to the area around the stripper.
In windy conditions ( He He.......... most times you are fishing.........Hey ) , the line from the spool in its big spiral actually overshoots the stripper on the down wind side & tames itself running back into the stripper . A trick you learn is to rotate the rod after the cast to suit the wind conditions & mitigate the line slap............He He He.

A couple of observations on comments in posts above.

Line Twist :
You can't compare Alvey's to anything else.
The pivot between cast & retrieve modes generates twist from every cast that is not taken out in the retrieve ( as this is in centerpin mode ).
............whereas a threadline / spinning reel with its rotating head takes out the twist from the cast during the retrieve.
So with Alvey reels a swivel above the terminal tackle is a necessity.

A little note on using PE lines with Alvey Reels - braid is OK..............Fireline is a NONO................the twist in fireline is the opposite direction to the twist generated in an alvey ......................so Alveys untwist Fireline & de-laminate the resin matrix.............mucho bad.
The twist direction in fireline was designed to increase the pitch of the twist generated in threadline / spinning reels when fish runs took out more line that has twist imparted by the rotating head in the retrieve. The gearing of threadline reels produces a twist in this process opposite to that genearated by an Alvey reel...............................been there done that a long time ago ending up with de-laminated Fireline.
I periodically de-twist my braid on my Alveys by running out the cast length in the front yard and attaching the end to a cuphook mounted in a portable drill in reverse..................whirr - whirr until all the twist is out & bit bit of extra put in & away you go again...................actually quite easy to see the braid alignment in the sunlight......................... I do the same thing with my braid on threadlines when I have had a big session with big fish repetitively running a lot of line off the drag backwards & forwards.
..........................its a handy neat trick.

Trends in spool diameter size in threadline / spinning reels :
The compromise here is between smaller diameter spiral wave form in the cast & drag capacity.
The trend is for higher drag outputs in the same sized reel package ( and lowered rotation speeds ) & this is accommodated by larger spool diameter most efficiently with the same sized gearbox & reel frame.
So the trend is not just marketting hype there is a functional rationale for the trend.

Alvey style guide spacings :

The traditional blurb is 4 guides halving the tip distance at each guide spacing towards the tip.
Very, very few people use this set-up these days..........................6 guides is more normal & actually functions better .
The original concept of the stripper halfway to the tip is also more like 30-35% these days ( once the dynamics of the line slap issue was understood & the appropriate compromise realised ).
The original guide spacing by halves concept also led to some pretty horrendous guide loadings when the rod moved from being a raw bamboo cane to fibreglass & then multi-modulus fibreglass / carbon composites.
The Alvey rod / reel combination is most effective with a very strong butted rod & this in fact allows the big spacing between the reel & the stripper at 30 - 35% of rod length.
The rod therefore does not deflect much in that area & guide loading at the spripper is not particularly high as the vast majority of the working curve of the rod ( and guide loadings ) is above that.
Optimised Alvey rod blanks are nearest described as a 12 ' - 12.5' hotshot rod. ( with a more powerful tip ).
So Yes................guide spacing concepts of the Alvey rods could be adapted to Hotshot rods & others with very strong butts...............but not really suitable for less very fast actioned rod blanks
And Rembember..................the guide spacing by halves concept pretty well died out with the advent of fibreglass rodblanks anyway & other than the larger than conventional distance to the stripper these days the guide spacings above the stripper adopt fairly conventional spacings in a 6 guide setup.

Hope that helps others not familiar with this type of equipment get a picture of the setup & the compromises in it & its necessary fishing rigs.
Regards
DenisB

Question for Denis, and probably Tom K: As line comes off a spinning rod, is there a "node" point where the diameter of the dynamic loops of line is very small? Is that what you are trying to "hit" with the position of the guides? If there is a "node," is it always in the same place with the same line, or does it move up and down the rod depending on the velocity of the cast? or other factors?

I've always said I cannot come to this forum without learning something, and I sure learned something today. And maybe more tomorrow?

thanks, Mick

Michael
Sorry for the delayed response, as I have not been on the board for a few days.
The answer to your query is:-
Yes ..........there are node points .
The general relationships go like this:-
- larger spool diameter.......longer wavelength of the spiral wave form of the line leaving the spool
ie the node points are further apart.
- the wave form however is influenced by many factors ( the usual multi-parameter complexity of our 'simple' fishing rods )
- the nature of the line ( mono or braid or fireline types
- stiffness of the line
- the "set " of the line stored on the spool ( a mono issue............& to a lesser extent fireline )
- the relative weight of the line ( heavier line .........more spiral momentum & higher amplitude / longer wavelength of the
waveform.
- velocity of the cast....................more velocity more momentum ( see above influence ).

Re - positioning guides relative to nodes.
- the worst thing you can do is place guides at a node ( IF it were in a repeatable location ) as the wave form will be transmitted along the guidetrain.............................the objective in modern thinking of guide train design is to choke the waveform of the line relatively quickly to generate a smoother passage of line thru the rest of the guidetrain to enable smaller guides up the guidetrain to optimise rod dynamic performance & sensitivity of the rod in fishing mode.
As we have discussed in previous posts this is a compromise of higher friction at the choke guides balanced with better outcomes further up the guidetrain & generally longer casts & better sensitivity in fishing mode from the 'package".

There are so many factors affecting the spiral waveform of the line coming off a 'spinning / threadline' reel that chasing guide position is not an option and is not the determinant engineering intention in guide location.
The determinant engineering intention of guide location is to manage the stress/load generated by the guides in fish fighting mode & loads generated in casting.
ie
Spacing the guides so that their separation is appropriate to the strength of the blank in the area of the blank. between guides.

Very occasionally a poorly performing rod is encountered in casting where an angler consistently generates a waveform which presents nodes in the waveform of the line at or very near the "choke" guides in the guide train..................I stress this is not a very common occurrence.
When it is encountered & cause identified...............minor shifting of the guide separation in the stripper & next guide or two resolves the problem.
Note: This can be an issue where an angler uses a narrow range of lure weights, casting power & line size / type where the outcome consistently produces a node at the choke guide/s..............................it is extremely uncommonly encountered.

Hope this answers your query.

I will try & post a relevant image

[www.rodbuilding.org]
photo is posted in miscellaneous category ..............titled 'cast line waveform"

DenisB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2008 07:47PM by Denis Brown.