Could you flippers explain why most flipping blanks are a moderate action?

I pitch 90% of the time and I prefer a fast-extra fast action rod as it seems most do. To me it seems you would also want that in a flipping blank too. The only thing that has come to me is that most people use braid when flipping.

I too prefer a fast or extra fast action because I like a soft tip, even when pitching/ flipping. I told myself I'll build a few moderates to try and I'm sure one will be a pitching/ flipping stick. I'm sure the preference is for a stiffer tip with the heavier baits commonly used for flipping and the fast action tip may be too soft for people.

Please!!

Flippers display the Peace Sign and Rods are Pink and Teal!!

I will ATTEMPT to respond to your post as a "Pitcher" - My rods are all Stealth Black!

I think if you research the rods most use for flipping very few longer rods with power 4 or greater most will be in the moderate to fast range. When pitching short distances the loading of the blanks is really not a factor in lure presentation and the action plays very little in getting the lure to the target. The rod action and power will have a lot to say about hook set and fish recovery. The correct action blank facilitates pin point control, soft lure entry, vertical lure drop, hook set power and butt section power for fish retrieval along the same path the lure entered the water. If you are flipping with braid the slower and softer blank compensates somewhat for the non stretch of the braid and minimizes "lip ripping" and lost fish on close in hook ups.

I am making the assumption that the pitching you are referring to is not clear water shaky head, drop shot or jerk bait and you are referring to with more powerful rods used for worms. This is really a complex issue. I have had problems with shock loading failures of high modulus rods 6'6" and shorter with fast and extra fast actions being used for pitching and close in work. The hook set technique of the fisherman of the shorter lock up points on the fast to extra fast blanks contributed to premature blank failure during violent close in hook sets.

This issue is also closely tied to the durability factor of the rod blank. The use of multi modulus blanks is a common method of building a blank that will perform all the desired tasks and live to tell the tale about that large hawg you jerked out from under the pier.

Pitching for Castaway XP3 bass blanks and there is not one extra fast in the lot: [www.swamplandtackle.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2008 09:32PM by Bill Stevens.

Blame Dee Thomas. He knew what he was doing when he picked that first Fenwick blank. Since then, everyone is just trying to copy or improve on a good thing. It would take a full article to do justice to the path Dee laid down for the rest of us to follow. For touring pros, use Dee's guidance, for others - use whatever they will like - they all will work.

Rich please clarify with your take on the following. Did Dee's initial work with rods like frog rods employ braid? It is my understanding that Dee's concept presently on the market, in the form of Powells, utilizes fast to extra fast for most of the rod designs. I did not think that Dee's original flipping sticks were fast or extra fast. In the specific case of close pitching in heavy cover, say under 30 feet, with braid would you prefer an extra fast blank?

I am copying an appropriate comment from another thread that may have an application to the subject in this thread. This would apply to those desiring stability of lure and softness of water entry.

Post By Dennis Brown:

"An issue with the very fast taper blanks like the Hotshot rods is the "lure tumble" you mention in an earlier post. Finding the right amount of drop from the tip before the cast is valuable in establishing stable lure flight from the cast as well as cadence of the 'swing'. You are correct in your assessment of slower vs faster taper affecting lure stability & flight. Its more from the fact that the final accelleration of the rod tip at the release is from the reflex of the rod and this is fast & short with a fast taper blank compared to being more progressive and slightly longer timewise in a med/fast blank. It simply makes the timing of your cast release more critical in a very fast taper blank and a little more forgiving in a slower taper blank."
DenisB



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2008 11:21AM by Bill Stevens.

I'd like a clarification also, the Fenwick Flippin Stik I have isn't particularly fast, and the rods Dee did for Lamiglas a few years ago, if I remember, didn't seem out of the ordinary either. I remember the Diawa Denny Brauer rods back in the very early 90's had a very thin, light, X Fast tip on them.

Tom,
IMHO the Mod- Action let's you set the hook in a very close quarters situation without tearing a huge hole in a bass' mouth with the heavy guage hook common in jigs. When you are pitching you typically have more line out there to act as a shock absorber.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

Thanks all for the facts and opinions.

I've never really used a real deal flipping rod and kinda thought that would be one of my projects down the road.
I know that mod-fast action blanks do not agree with me when I'm pitching. I have a hard time keeping the lure close to the water and keeping it from lifting during the "flight". I can see (thanks to the posts above) that you don't put near the effort or speed on a lure when flipping so it makes sense the blank action is less critical for an accurate presentation.

Bill, I'm not quite sure what your were talking about but it made me laugh anyway. LOL

Tom B. many of the communication problems rod builders have is created by marketing information provided by production rodbuilders and blank manufacturers. Bobby Feazel and I have discussed, in detail, this thread as well as a few others which are currently on this board. In most cases blanks action descriptors utilize no comonality pertaining to marketing information within product lines and certainly there is none across the entire market. We have basically decided that the best blank to use is the one that will produce all of the desired results and find a way to measure and transfer the required information to the next rod to produce identical results. I am quite sure at this point that using Loomis, Rainshadow, St. Croix, Viper, Castaway and other manufacturers' descriptive literature will be of little value when comparing A to B when attempting to duplicate task specific bass rods.

Adding to the problem bass fishermen, in many cases, are not consistant when using casting technique terms for bass fishing. The terms pitching, flippping, roll, snap, overhead, skip and a myriad of other terms are used when describing techniques. If you take the time to listen to many fishermen give your their take on these you will know why I used the "flipper" comment at the start of this thread! Flipping to a guy at Seminole, in Florida, may mean flipping a 4 oz egg sinker as high in the air as possible with a six inch Carolina rigged live shiner so it will punch the pads and drag the bait to bottom.

Take a close look at this written text for pitching:

> [www.bassfishing.org]

Please note the section where caution is given to minimizing blank deflection. The writer of this pitching description may be referencing the effects described in the "Text by Dennis Brown" which appears above. If I have all this figured correctly you prefer a faster blank due to your extended range. If others are working closer in the faster tip may impede accuracy and soft landing.

Any way good stuff and thanks for starting the thread.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2008 10:24AM by Bill Stevens.

"The rest of the story"- Dee's original technique was "tule dipping" - using a 14-16 ft one piece rod with a short line tied to the tip using a 5/8 oz. jig. He was winning almost everything he entered - so tournament organizers banned the long rods and asked Dee what min. length would keep him in - his answer off the top of his head was 7 1/2 ft. He was on the Fenwick team and had to go the factory to come up with something - he picked a saltwater blank out of the new Fenglass material (S-glass) . The blank had a stiff tip (to set the hook better) and a flexible mid section to fight the fish.

Dee (now using a reel) proceeded to invent the Flippin' technque. What he found was that with a pendulum swing of the lure and holding some line in his left hand, he could (with a no splash entry) reach targets out to 22 ft. and open up the water column down to 15 ft deep (dipping was down to 4 ft.). The end result was devastating - he was now more unbeatable than before! Can't beat him - join him (we did) - and tournament bass fishing was changed forever.

The original Fenwick Flippin" Stik was the 775 7'6" 8 3/8 oz , 3/8-2 oz lures, 12-30 lb line. It was an 8 3/8 oz club, but if you learned the technique correctly - it was easy to use all day without a thought given to the length, balance or weight! Much time has passed since Dee invented the technique - and experts are now everywhere with their how-to's.

Dee held back some critical components to the technique so he could maintain his competitive edge (it worked!). Get my book if you want the whole story - but basically - the left hand MUST transition to the rod at the end of each flip - this gives perfect balance and control - until the next Flip.

What I know of flippin' came from being in the boat with Dee and his willingness to go past what was public knowledge - about the rod and the technique. I designed the Lamiglas Flip Stik - and Dee later put his name on it - which was only right - Fenwick had dropped him and what I did was a result of what Dee taught me - it was basically his ideas - only now in a graphite rod.

The stories are endless - and best told in seminars at the EXPO.

Dee's frog rod would have more flex in the tip - as it is a casting rod - Flippin' is not a casting technique - neither is Pitchin'.

Thanks Rich!

Now the only ICRBE problem for many of us is insuring that you are strapped into the seat of the cross country flight in time to be standing at the front of the room full of people at the appointed hour!

Richard-Dee's technique with the long rod reminds me of what my Dad and Granddad used to call using a "jigger pole". 12-14 ft bamboo "calcutta" pole they were called with 24" of braided mono onto which was tied a feathered treble hook. Tip of pole would be dabbled or splashed softly in the water-when a fish struck you did not lift it-you pulled the pole toward you hand over hand until fish was close enough to net. No "playing" involved. Sensitivity not an issue. Haven't thought of that in a long time.

Chris - exactly. The advantage to Dee's tule dipping technique (until it was effectively banned from tournaments) was he used a banana shaped weedless jig with a saltwater hook filed to a cutting point - that he dropped INTO the cover - and dragged the bass out. It was a poor jig - Dee farmed more bass because of that jig than the rest of the field would catch. I designed the Weapon jig - not for Dee - but for my best friend, Gary Klein. Gary insisted we form a company and sell the jig (mistake) - it's now the most copied Flip jig in the US. It solved the problem of farmed fish in cover using the Flippin' technique. Gary has won over 1 million dollars with that jig and the Revolver rods I've built for him - I tell him he could have done it with an Ugly Stik and a plastic worm - he just replies "we'll never know".

Bill, I know there's one or two questions you and others who build bass rods might have for me. I missed the last ICRBE due to unusual circumstances - this one - I'll try to come back early - visit in Florida + a cruise and then drive back for the ICRBE - most likely the last one I'll be able to make - make a list of questions best answered in person. I can talk longer than I can type.

Thanks again for all these replies! This turned into a much more interesting and educational topic than I thought!

Rich there is a GROSS ERROR in your above post! ........... Please change "one or two questions" to five thousand ......... I am officially requesting the Kman to extend your exposure time!