Thanks Sean, Im glad it at least made sense to someone who understood the points I was trying to make in the comparison.
The hands-on proof of pulling on both styles of rod against a set of scales is quite dramatic as anyone who's done it knows - but finding the words for why is a lot harder than pulling on the blank.
I had to read & redraft the intended post 3 times to make sure it made sense to myself & I still wasn't sure I was getting the comparison across well enough.
Sometimes not so easy to put into words what we mean. Hey.
( been guilty of getting my thoughts jumbled before ( out of context ) & wore the brickbats for the inadequate effort )
So I appreciate the feedback.
DenisB

Denis, thanks for taking the time writing that post. I've reread about 10 times now and am still unclear on this statement "most of the power transmission is taking place in a smaller section of the rod closer to the fisher in a fast taper blank". I would think that the "power of transmission" would be closer to the angler in a slow action blank because the effective length of the rod is decreased as the rod bends thus decreases the leverage advantage to the fish. I understand that a fast action blank has more "lift", however, assuming rods of the same length, the fish's leverage advantage would be greater in a fast action blank. I drew up my interpretation of your explanation here

[i25.photobucket.com]

I see your point that the amount of lift in a slower action rod (A) is less than that of a fast action rod (B). However, the effective length of the rod is reduced (C) in a slow taper than that of a fast taper (D). I would also think the kinetic enrgy in the form of the rod bending would be greater in a slow taper rod than that of a fast action. This energy, I would think, would put more pressure on the fish as the rod is trying to return to straight. Am I way off here?

Hey Guys,

I am very sure action has nothing to do with power. Action refers to tapers but stiffness and power are different animals.

Anthony Lee

Anthony you are quite correct that action and power are completely seperate entities HOWEVER when a human attempts to harness the maximum lift power possible out of a rod, the rods action will come into play (I believe).

Scott, as you well know with all grouper this is a fairly short fight. If you get the fish away from home, you win, else, you lose. I may be using power and lift interchangeably, but you do need that lift to bring the fish up away from its home.

I think you will have to take into account the persons physical ability. Can they sustain a 5'6 stand up fast taper stick at 30# of pressure for 5minutes in the harness? (thats all the time you should really need). What about a 5'?

A slow action rod will absorb a lot of the pull from both the fish and the angler and put the bend in the rod. Yes the fish will have a leverage advantage over the angler with the fast taper rod. It almost always will. That leverage advantage is lessened by a slower action rod, but I find that you end up using more energy due to lessened lift even though you have a better leverage advantage. Everything is a tradeoff. It's a matter of how much can the user physically afford to trade off.

Do a simple test with two rods of similar or the same length. One fast action, one slow or moderate. Now lift a 5# weight or dumbell with each. I routinely use a 5 gallon bucket with an 18 pound cast net in it to show this to a potential customer. You should find that it actually becomes harder to lift with the slower action rod than the fast action. It is due to the rods ability to lift. After all, the entire grouper family are bottom dwellers and you are going to need that lift power to bring it up.

As a side note, they really do need to open a 1/year limit or something down here. They are annoying.

We cannot talk about action & fishing power independently as they affect each other.
Action is absolutely the type of deflection the rod takes under load this determines the 'shut off' point of the blank & the power that can be delivered by the fisher is determined by how far away from the fisher that 'shut off point is.
a 6' 40# rod has the same rated power as a 10' 40# rod ................but the fishing power they can deliver to the line is massively different .
In power I am not talking about the rated power of the blank but the fishing power of the package.
There is a very important issue of context here.
We also have a problem with rod terminology here;
we have arbitrarily defined action of a rod blank ; by the length of tip that bends ........top 30% fast........top40% med-fast.............etc etc.
really we are talking here about fast action as the % of the rod that is curved , the less length of rod that is curved the faster its action & that action in a high power rod can be ( and should be ) well down towards the butt at high loads for fisher efficiency & high power output by the rod..............the tip in this case is not curved very much it has flattened out in the direction of the line.
The fact that for other reasons we have defined rod action the way we have leads to confusion in what context we are talking.
In my context we are not talking about where the rod bends as its action but how the rod bends ...................ie short radius bend = fast action -
long radius bend = slow action....................if we can agree on another term for this other than action lets define it and use it & there will be no more confusion.
Damn English language...........too many interpretations & meanings of the same spelling depending on application & context.

Sean;
Power delivery in a slow vs fast action rod.
In heavy duty knock-down-drag-out rods:
Slow action:
the fisher is responding and opposing with effort the weight & swimming of the fish pulling on the tip & the fishing power of the rod is effectively determined by how far that is away from the fisher & the rod blank is absorbing energy in deflecting in the lift .............this energy absorbtion is relatively even throughout the action of the rod deflecting as there is no defined 'shut off' in a slow action blank.. Yes that energy stored in the deflected rod is delivered to the fish but at a declining rate as the rod reflexes back towards a straighter shape at the top of the lift & more energy is stored in rod deflection in this type of actioned rod than in deflecting a fast taper stand up rod .
Fast Action:
The tip deflection is rapid & the tip folds down to almost be flat in line with the line coming from the tip so the fish is not pulling directly against the tip but directly against a point further back in the rod,
Yes the tip absorbs energy in the deflection but that is limited by the design of the taper & the rod is delivering the power in extra lift by the fisher in a smaller section of the rod in a fast action rod rasther than throuout its length as in a slow action rod.
We are not talking noodle rods here we are talking serious power output rods.for Goliaths. So the tip section is not folding up.

The short stand-up style fast taper ( fast action )rods are not designed for long lifts or optimised with long lifts they optimise fishing power in short stroking where the effort by the fisher is not absorbed by much rod deflection as it is at or near the 'shut off' so the fishing effort & power is translated almost directly to the line depending on how long the rod is at its shut-off.

Hope that helps
DenisB

I'll let you continue to explain...you make more sense than I do ...COOL

After some 50 years of fishing, I just learnt from this forum ( Mr Tom Kirkman and the Common Cents System) that action is just tapering. This means that any blank, regardless of power or stiffness or materials, can be fast, or slow. A soft fibreglass blank can be fast tapering but that does not mean that it has more power that a stiff graphite blank that has a slow taper. I was told to read the CCS and after almost 2 months, I think I now understand better.

Cheers,

Anthony Lee