Just did a guide repair to a Shimano bait caster, and they use V frame #6 spinning guides for running guides, and shortly after, came accross an older St. Croix that had the same thing.

I can see where they would help keep the line off the blank, being higher frames (looks like both companies took advantage of this to help use fewer guides - 6 plus tip top on 6'6" rods)

Anyone have any experience using these on casting rods?? If it works, why not use these single foots on the whole rod, butt guide and all?

Because the higher frame exacerbates the problem of the rod wanting to twist when under load.

Generally, if you're going to build your casting rod with the guides along the top of the rod, you'd want to use the lowest frames possible.

..............

> Generally, if you're going to build your casting rod with the guides along the top of the rod,
> you'd want to use the lowest frames possible.

That depends on what your goal is. If you want to use teh least amount of guides (less cost), and make tons of fishermen happy because the line doesnt' touch the blank (something all fishermen know is "bad") and could care less abotu tourque or twist (whether they notice or not) - hi frame guides are a perfect choice.

All of the older production rods used the higher V frame - they changed to lower after seeing the effect of rod torsion - then the went to the smaller lower guides - guess what - they forgot to do one more thing - change the spacing to allow for the lower frame - most of the production bass rod guide set ups are suffering from the change when they actually did not bother to investigate other matters - this is one of the best sales approaches for a custom builder to use - correct placement!

When they drag their favorite into your shop simply rig a piece of nice clean white cotton string throught the guides - pull on it a little to bend blank and watch the tip top roll to bottom and the string drop about an inch below the blank! Eyes will get quite big and the chances of them listening to the upsides of the spiral may make a little more sense to them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2008 12:46PM by Bill Stevens.

Marc-
That may have been the manufacturer's goal. If that's your goal, you could spiral wrap a rod using very few even less expensive sf guides and have no risk of the line touching the rod. Another option would be taking the time to educate a buyer as to the design flaws of a rod built that way or built like the one you are repairing. If you don't, the next builder may, causing you to possibly lose the opportunity to build him another one. To some people it still won't matter, but I think most appreciate it.
Those who do appreciate it are likely to return to you with their needs-and will probably tell a friend.


Chris

Marc I would never use high frame guides on Bass rods primarily because when casting or retrieving the lure, or fish, it is pulling sideways on the guides ninety percent of the time. That's the way we hold the rod in order to see the bend in the rod at all times. And it is easier to jerk sideways on the rod to set the hook than jerking straight up. About the only time the lure / fish is on the underneath side of the rod is when he is using a jig , frog, worm, or a bottom bait of some kind, then when we get the fish off the bottom or out of cover we pull sideways again. Therefore, to help eliminate torque on the rod I want the guide ring as close to the blank as I can get it.

The " fishing nature of the beast" with the beast being the Bass fisherman who's only concern at the moment is putting that Bass in the boat.
Watch your fishing partner sometime or watch the Pros on TV and observe how he handles his rod with and without a fish on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2008 12:52PM by Jay Hunt.

I agree with all here - and I use SF fly guides on my baitcasters. BUT........Billy V. really hit on something. I find I can educated probably 5%-10% of the people, the rest have things set in their head, like "The line can't touch the blank or it will SNAP!", and also won't buy a spiral wrap because it is too different. I find that most of the time if I try too hard to educate you simply loose the sale, as most guys want what they want and that's that.

MArc, you have to decide what you want to do. If you wan tto build the best rod possible, you will have to be a superior salesman and work hard on most orders, or jus twrap the rods the way fishermen want them built and make the sale. Most roduilders (myself included) are too smart for their own good - we'll talk down about somethign like this, not realizing there is a .strong possibility we are insulting the guy we are talking to because he has a dozen rods he loves and has no problem with. MAny fishermen feel rodbuilders invent problems to sell rods.

How silly do you sound to a guy who has all straight guides and never experiances any twist, and you ar etelling him why a spiral wrapis better and teh straight set up is inferior? You might be right, but that guy will not buy a rod from you, and he will tell otehrs how cockamamie you are.

Marc , you are so right ! Most fishermen want what they want. I have found that most fishermen have to be educated very gently and very slowly or you can loose a sale. And as Bill touched on in his post, you got to prove it to them somehow. They have to see it to believe it.
I guess US fishermen are just a hard headed lot.

Thanks Billy and Jay! Glad to know I'm not just a really bad salesman. And on fishmen "want what they want, and don't tell me different" - I had a guy that wouldn't buy a 6'9" Musky rod because it was just too short, and he had to have a 6'10" rod - no joke. Still scratching my head on that one.

Marc

Ya ain't gonna catch 'em all, fellas.

If you can catch ONE of the big ones with all the patches on the shirt THEY will CATCH more of the Wannabees for YOU!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2008 05:57PM by Bill Stevens.

Marc - why not just extend that blank? If its the one I think you are referring to, Extending it down there and that short will not hurt any bit. The other option is to add a gimbal as soon as the tip is on there its a perfect 6'10". I build a lot of rods on a blank that length and many of my customers want a 7' rod. Sometimes I can talk them into 6' 10.5" and sometimes I cant.

Bill is right. All you gotta do is get one guy on board with some credentials, tell them "Well so and so uses this" and it's amazing how a spiral wrap suddenly seems like the thing to have.

I think you have to decide what you will let come out of your shop. For me, since I don't do this for a living and don't need every potential sale that walks in, high framed guides on a bass rods aren't an option. I don't want that coming out of my shop because I don't feel, from a performance standpoint, they are the best choice.