I knew this was going to happen - I just didn’t expect it to happen so fast.

When I designed this thing, I wanted to ensure that it would be put into immediate use by tens of thousands of custom rod builders. The best way I could think of to do that was to foot the bill to put it on decals and just give the darn things away for free. I have no doubt this method will bear fruit - it already has. Nearly 30,000 decals have now been distributed. At least 2/3rds of those are already in the hands of custom rod builders and hopefully a good percentage of those are already being displayed in public. The rest are awaiting distribution through manufactures and dealers, all of whom have assured me that they will also give them away for free (you may have to place an order with them to get one, however).

No less than 4 persons/companies have approached me in the last 24 hours about using the symbol on clothing items that they wish to manufacture and sell. It was a little disheartening to me that the very first thing that some people would see in the symbol is money. But I knew it would happen. Businesses are just that - businesses. I just wasn’t prepared to have to handle this matter so soon. But I’m trying to see the other side of the coin as well.

To be fair, having it on shirts, hats and whatnot will help spread the symbol that much further. I don’t know that that’s really the motivation behind those who want to sell it (I suspect that it’s not) but that doesn’t really matter - it would have the effect of putting the symbol out and around in more places. And... it is true that rod builders are going to want to be able to acquire shirts and hats with the symbol. But if those items are provided by me it will make it look like it was my intent to profit from the symbol right from the beginning, which I can assure you was never the motivation behind the thing.

So somebody is going to provide shirts, hats, key FOBs, etc., with the symbol for those that want them. But it will not be me. Nor am I going to give anyone sole or exclusive rights to do so. Instead, I am meeting with my copyright attorney in a week or so and will discuss how to license the symbol for anyone that wants to use or sell it whether it be on a shirt, hat, decal, etc., etc., etc. We may charge a fee for licensing and then put that money towards funding an industry trade group or into the RodMaker Magazine Public Library Program. Or, we may just give written permission to use it without charging anything at all. I need to talk to my attorney about this a bit more so that we do this in the right way. I would prefer not to charge anything at all.

Thus, it will be granted but please give me a couple or 3 weeks to get some things nailed down. Until then, put it on your business cards, weave it on a rod, tattoo it on your forehead, but don’t sell it until I can get that part of the equation nailed down. I promise that getting permission to use it for any legal purpose that benefits the craft won’t be difficult. I just need some time to get things in order. Long term, we just want to be able to control it so we don't wind up with it being used in ways that are detrimental to our craft. The last thing I want to see on a T-Shirt is a little cartoon character peeing on the rod building symbol. Thanks.


.................

Anyone that would accuse you of trying to profit from this thing must be an idiot plain and simple. You will never recover what you spent to print them and give them away. The motivation was clear from the get go..............you wanted to do something positive for the craft. You did, again.

Having said all that I do know that I would like to be able to buy a hat with the symbol on it. Maybe two. A jacket would nice. So I would not be against having such things available from someone. And anyone that used it to sell clothing or other items could certainly never say anything bad about the person who in effect is putting money in their pockets by having designed it in the first place.

i liked the idea you had the other day about having a licensing fee that went towards putting more rodbuilding books in schools and libraries

I think there is a major difference in "using the symbol for profit" and "adding the symbol onto an already existing item".

I am just using a shirt as an example, it could be a hat, jacket, whatever, etc and not necessarily clothing.

The difference being that the shirt designed with the symbol as its main attribute is a "direct use of the symbol for profit" whereas the shirt with a logo as its main design and possibly a small little rod building symbol on the sleeve is in fact a use of the symbol for profit, but it is added onto an already existing shirt for profit. In my opinion, it is by no means the intent of originator of that shirt to use the symbol directly for profit, but more to get the symbol out there and seen a bit more such as on party boats, fishing tackle stores, etc.

That said, I do like you idea of a licensing fee and knowing where the money will go is an added benefit.

Defer



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2008 06:08PM by Bill Stevens.

Tom - any thought of comehow coordinating this with RBI? They already have a membershiop organization with only one purpose - to advance the craft.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

Tom
charge the fee and put toward the books for schools and libraries, great use for the money!

If the intent of the symbol is to be an internationally recognised icon along the lines of a "diver down" flag or other such thing, then does it really matter if someone tries to sell it?
Wouldn't it just come back to "buyer beware"?
I'm quite certain you can buy clothes etc with diving flags, semaphore flags and most likely chemical symbols.
The fact that they are for sale doesn't detract from their meaning in the least.

I think what Tom has done is great.
But I also think for it to become widely distributed it has to be open to the most efficient distribution process available.
I'm afraid that is sale for profit.
If people want a shirt, cap or whatever, let them have at it!
I'm damn sure you'll see precious little clothing carying it, or any other symbol if the manufacturers & distributers can't make a return on their investment.

Tom I think you should obtain (and probably alrady have) sufficient copyright over the symbol to prevent it being used as a trademark, but outside that I believe any fee, no matter whom the recipient will severely curtail the spread of it.

I hope this is accepted in the objective manner in which it was intended.

regards,
Owen Dare

Owen,

You haven't known me very long. No problem.

If a fee is charged, we'd be talking a few dollars at most. It would simply be a token amount to show that a transaction had taken place and the person being licensed was aware of how the symbol may be used. Or, as I stated above, permission will simply be granted in writing, no fee attached, just to make sure the user agrees to the proper use of the symbol. What I don't want to see and what I can't control without a copyright, is having it altered, changed, used on inappropriate items (I won't mention those here) or bastardized in some way that would not be good for the craft or that might harm the original intent of the symbol. That's all I'm talking about here. I just need time to get some things together with my attorney so I have the proper contracts ready and we can have something in writing that the user will agree to. Here I'm talking about those who want to print up shirts, hats, key FOBs, decals, stickers, etc., and offer them for sale. I do not care about rod builders putting in on their business cards, ironing it on a personal shirt, etc. That's entirely different and I've already given permission for it to be used in that manner.

What bugs me a bit, is that some folks are already berating me saying that I just want to make all the profit on it myself - they're mad because they can't cash in on it and think I plan to. Well what if I did? It was my idea, my effort, my money that put it out there. If I were to do that (many folks certainly would) nobody could utter a single bad word about me. But don't worry - I have no intention of doing that and think that's already been proven. If you knew me you'd know you have nothing to worry about in that regard, My endeavors have made far more money for this industry than they'll ever make for me. That's the way I set them up.

I'm already in for $12,500 in printing these and getting them out to the rod builders. I will never, never, never recover that money from this endeavor. But then, I never intended to. My motives are above reproach by anyone and I'd challenge anyone else in this craft, even those that do have the monetary means, to do something like this for everyone involved. Not tooting my horn, but I'm not going to let anyone question my motives here - those that do have one heck of a lot of nerve.

And please understand that much of what I've said here isn't aimed specifically at you - I do appreciate your comments and suggestions. I'm just answering a few questions that are starting to crop up.

...................

Russ,

No, I will not tie it to any organization. I will not even tie it to my magazine or this website. This symbol will be bigger than any single entity and if it is to be truly universal in nature, it must be unattached to anyone or anything. It is a true universal symbol for custom rod builders all over the world. It represents the craft and only the craft.

Besides, I think RBI has their own logo. They don't need 2.

...............

Owen, After you have been around in custom rod building for a few more years you will begin to understand that Tom is not only about the only person would even do something like this but in many ways the only person who COULD do something like this. I think it comes back to why his Rod Building Exposition is larger than ALL the other rod building events, conclaves, seminars and gatherings put together. He is an impartial player and is not competing with anyone. He does not have an organization. He does not sell blanks or components. What he sells is a magazine and advertising and from what I have seen just enough to keep these efforts up and running for everybody. I don't have any doubt that he profits the rod building craft way more than he does himself.

I think if anyone else tried to put out such a symbol they would be doing it soley for profit or to promote a single company, group, or website. One thing I have learned, is that when Tom puts his mind to something he does it well and it succeeds. I really do not think that anyone else could have done this successfully. I would not worry too much about it getting widespread acceptance. If that's what Tom set out to do then that is what will happen. Wait and see.

Any company that wants to sell the logo for profit should be happy to abide by some simple rules of use. And I do not have any doubts that whatever Tom comes up with will be fair to all.

An old friend of mine used to say, " I stand nothing to gain but criticism." My hat is off to you Tom.

Nowhere in my post did I question Tom's motives in creating and distributing this symbol.
Nor did I judge those that seek to use it for profit. That's what makes the world go around.
We trade goods and services for profit. Even custom rod builders.

My comment was directed solely at the idea of charging a fee for the use of the symbol.
It was an opinon. "My" opinion in fact.
I fail to see how my opinion is any less worthy than any other based on how long I have been making rods or who I know.
Those conditions presume that I was passing comment on motive.
Furthermore I was led to believe that the point of a public forum such as this, was the open discussion of ideas and yes... even opinions.

The motives of anyone in this matter are of little concern to me.
If I like an idea I'll adopt it.
If I don't, I'll reject it.
If I think it can be made better, I'll say so.

Tom has sent me an email in reply.
It bears no malice.
I appreciate that he recognises my logic on the matter even if he may not agree with me.

regards,

Owen Dare

I don't disagree with Owen. The reasons he gave are partly why I don't like the idea of charging a licensing fee. It's just something my attorney has discussed with me. I'll know more what we'll do in a week or 2. We simply want some means to ensure that those who use the symbol as a profit vehicle do not use it in a way that would be bad for it or the craft.

I also agree that business is business and shops and dealers who want to sell the symbol for profit are doing nothing different when they sell a rod blank or reel seat. These are all items for sale, at least from their business standpoint.

At any rate, the symbol will gain worldwide acceptance in any case - RodMaker Magazine has pretty much guaranteed that. When you reach that many people and provide them all with the symbol on a decal at no charge, the ball is already rolling downhill at a good clip. The only question now is how far will it roll.


......................

You will also note that there was no malice in my post. That sort of thing isn't allowed here and I wouldn't do it even if it was.

My point is that Tom knows what he's doing. You needn't worry about the symbol getting widespread use or being accepted. Tom will take care of seeing that it does. Of that I have no doubt nor would anyone who knows anything about him or his magazine, website or Expo. He has succeeded where so many others have failed. He has a track record that speaks for itself. That was my point. I'm always willing to let him guide his efforts in his own way. He seems to get the job done time after time.

Owen,

I don't think that anyone was questioning your opinions or your right to express them. You have some valid points and this forum (unlike some) allow the expression of all opinions. I think that the responders were just expressing their confidence in Tom and his judgement and their confidence in him.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

What is the symbol



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2008 05:35PM by Bryan McPherson.

The cross doesn't represent original artwork and thus you could use it in all sorts of derogatory ways and no one could do anything about it. I am going to try and see that the rod building symbol isn't used in any way that would draw bad connotations to it or the craft - there are a few that have worked tirelessly against anything I've done over the years and although this is a universal symbol that doesn't represent me or any of my endeavors, some will still recognize that I designed and produced it and they might take their usual means to try and undermine it in some way. I'd hope that sort of thing wouldn't happen, but the proper way to go about making sure that it doesn't is to protect it now at the outset.

.................

If you did charge a hefty licensing fee so what? Companies who plan to profit from something you designed and spent a ton of money to get into worldwide circulation should be more than happy to pay up. Or do they think they should profit for free? I know you said you woudn\'t do this but even if you did no one would have any right to complain.

Thank you. That's a good point, but I doubt many companies will see it like that.

But no, I don't plan to charge any sort of "hefty" licensing fee. I want to give free use of the symbol provided some very simple and basic use guidelines are adhered to. That's all.

..............

I was at my daughters new house yesterday when she had some new furniture delivered. The first thing the guy that was delivering it asked was what that fishing decal was!! When I told him, he started asking me about custom rofs (he wasn't familiar with such a thing) My daughtwer happened to have a custom rod (surprise!). He and his partner were avid fisherman and both asked me a ton of questions and asked for a card. Even if I never hear from either of them, that's two more anglers familiar with the logo AND custom rods

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!