i've been into rod building as a hobby and a side business for almost 10 months now. i have learned much from the internet, and from my friends in the biz. now that being said, i am a fisherman first, rodbuilder second.

i often come across message boards or articles which discuss rods built for specific purposes, such as a "swim bait rod," or a "crank bait rod."

now i want to get something out of the way first. i am in no way a freshwater fisherman. i know nothing about it, and don't care to learn. if someone approaches me about building a freshwater rod, i send them to my buddy lance d.. i strictly fish pelagic offshore species and coastal saltwater species (redfish, specks, etc.).

now my question regarding these rods may be a result of my lack of freshwater knowledge. however, being that i fish many $50,000-$200,000 billfish tournaments, i think i'm a little more knowledgeable than your average academy shopping crappie fisherman. lets take inshore saltwater fishing. i carry 4 rods with me when i fish; 2 popping rods for specks, and 2 rods with a little more beef in the tip for redfish. i'll go one step further and tell you that most fisherman in south louisiana dont even get that specific; they use "all in one" rods (rods than can fish reds and specs).

so the question is, whats up with all the lure-specific rods? maybe its just that i come from the school of "it's the carpenter and not the tools," but i dont really get it. i think if i had to take one rod for every lure in my tackle box id give up fishing.

maybe im just too new to the craft to understand. but i'll tell you that if you give me a baby-1 minus, i'll tie it to a christmas tree and catch redfish.

-lance
owner,
some small rod company in south louisiana

I'll be the first to chime in...

It's about lure presentation, feeling the bite and efficiency. I've fished both inshore salt for reds and for those green meanies in the freshwater. I too caught a lot of reds on a baby 1 minus and on a red shad cuplrit texas rig.

Many times where I fished growing up, you could catch reds and bass in the same spot sometimes back to back (brackish water). There is a huge difference in the fish.

Feel - Reds hit and run. Bass nibble. They can slam it, but not like a red (in my opinion). So you need the sensitivity. There have been many times where I've had a bass pick up a bait and had no idea he had it until I saw the line moving. That never happened with a red. You knew he was there. With a sensitive bass rod, it increases your chances of feeling it.

Presentation - Topwaters are often smaller they need a different rod than a big jig. I may need to throw a 3/4 oz jig, then again switch to a 1/8 oz shakey head to get that joker to bite. Same fish. I know he's there. Hits the jig and don't land, I change up and boat him off a different lure. I can tell you I've sat on a brush pile and used a worm, a jig, a crankbait in a day and kept catching fish on the same spot. It took the lure change to get different fish on that brush to bite. Can't use the same rod for a 3/4 jig and a 1/8 shakey.

# of rods - If you look at a bassers tackle box, it makes sense as to why he may need so many rods and have 15 in the boat. In a tournament I don't want to waste 5 minutes finding and tying on a new lure when I got fish schooling in front of me. Time = money in that case.

I'm sure more responses will pour in.

Let's look at it this way, you could play a round of good golf with just 3 clubs. A long or medium iron, a pitching wedge and a putter. But you could likely play a better round with a full set.

This is where we're headed, or already at, in terms of some types of fishing. Tournament bass fishing specifically. Certainly you don't need all these rods to do this type fishing, but many who are very serious about the sport (or hobby) will want every available advantage.

And let's not forget, it's one more excuse to own a few more rods.

............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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>.
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> And let's not forget, it's one more excuse to own
> a few more rods.
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> ............

sometimes we (fisherman) can be worse than women!

even the best carpenter is gonna have a tough time checking level with a hammer or driving nails with a speed square.

oh, I could do it all with a single rod, but why?

sometimes I even like two different rods for the same lures, depending on the conditions I'm fishing.

I have fished my entire life, I also am a fisherman before I am a rod builder. I believe that this is a way for the big guys to market bass fisherman that don't know any better. I fish many Minnesota native species, but bass fishing is my true love. I keep six rods in the boat at all times 4-bait casting and 2-spinning rods. I have seen guys at tournaments with 10-15 rods in their boats. I pick my rod blanks and the 1st question I ask myself is " how multi-purpose with this rod be" How many different applications will it serve for me based on it's length action and lure weight. Right now my favorite rod is a sc469mlxf, I use it for tube baits and Texas rigged worms, and it also makes a damn nice walleye rod. St.Croix calls it a drop shot rod. Thats my take on it.

Steve Bro
(BroCo Custom Rods)

Lance L. this is a long long long winded reply to your question.

Please note that I did not call this an answer.

Some may find it rather amusing and others find it useful in selling rods.

It provides a basis for an offshore guy to understand that the spinning rod you throw poppers at the little blackfins in the moonlight are not the ones you do battle with a 300 lb yellowfin at the Mars!

This is an example of the marketing material that was passed out to participants at the Marketing Workshop at High Point in 2008.

Tournament Bass Fisher People and Their Magic Wands

The media has created many cult heroes whose talents invade our existence through television, magazines, newspapers and public appearances. These high profile personalities wearing colorful sponsor provided uniforms, completely covered with endorsement patches, might represent a NASCAR team, Pro Angling Team or other sports group. The high profile personality probably endorses products manufactured by a commercial organization that markets goods or services related to a leisure activity.

The smiles on their face and glistening white teeth are muted by the dark wrap around sunglasses covering their eyes, which hide the real intent of the overall picture. Corporate profits motivate the increased investment in endorsements and advertising. This advertising technique is extremely effective in the generation of highly profitable retail sales to the public. Many fishermen watching a major TV network broadcast of a successful angler accepting a large check, keys to a new truck and shiny new bass boat are highly motivated to buy the endorsed equipment. Most will be quickly visit the nearest retail outlet to "get some of the good stuff" used by the winning angler.

The fishing rods used by successful tournament bass fishermen are very task specific. Many bass anglers may have as many as ten or more rods on the deck of their boat, each with different characteristics for use during the day. In many instances, the water conditions, weather, angler style, and yes, even the "angle of the dangle" can greatly affect the size of the angler's paycheck at the end of the tournament! To be a tournament winner you must have the right equipment and the knowledge to use it properly.

High profile anglers are given, at no charge, fishing rods by manufacturers to insure endorsement of their products while on the winner's platform. The sponsor's goal is to have their equipment displayed in a prominent manner, on the winners stand, in front of media cameras.

Many of the manufacturers of high quality task specific fishing rods may not offer all needed rod types in their product lines. An anglers contract with a sponsor may limit the availability, of choice, where task specific rods can make or break the anglers chance of placing high on the money list.

Years ago, when the bass tournaments started in the south most fishermen who were successful developed techniques, which are presently considered as "power style" technique. This style of fishing uses rods specifically developed for presentation of worm, spinner bait, crank bait, top-water bait and a myriad of other lures with bait casting reels. Each of these techniques requires a specific rod blank for optimum presentation. This power style also was responsible for development of the flipping stick, pitching stick, punch rods, frog rod, swim bait rod and rods that will insure that a large bass can be quickly removed from heavy cover, with braided line, on the same path that the bait went into the water.

The huge expansion of the bass tournament circuits, which includes nearly every state and water type, has recently brought another highly successful fishing technique to the forefront. Fishermen using finesse type presentations are now winning many tournaments. This style of fishing is beginning to hit the power fishermen in the pocket book! If you follow any of the bass master tournaments, you see some big names are trading bait-casting gear for spinning gear and downsizing tackle across the board when the bite gets tough. Kevin Van Dam, Mike Iconelli, and Mark Davis all have won tournaments or finished in the top three on the Elite series using finesse tactics and presentation techniques.

These unique presentations require a completely different rod set up and many require the angler to use a spinning reel. These sensitive and sometimes extra fast action rods are used to present extremely small lightweight lures. Rods using build procedures, which include spiral wrapped guides, fully exposed reel seats reel seats, no fore grip, split rear grips and innovative blank designs are used to reduce overall weight. These designs can be used to enhance the sensitivity of bait casting rods typically used by power style fishermen. This finesse style set up using bait-casting reels is not commercially profitable and is not currently available to the power style segment of the general fishing market through retail outlets. Recent innovations in the micro guide field testing may impact sensitivity issues.

Shaky head, trick worm and small crank bait rods, using blanks set up for casting reels, are built by custom builders that allow the angler using bait casting reels to effectively throw and present these unique, sometimes light weight lure forms. There is presently a unique cross over from on the pro tours. Power style fishermen who prefer bait-casting reels are using custom build rods for the finesse techniques. The next generation of winners will employ both power and finesse styles of lure presentation during the course of a hard days fishing in tough waters. Who will cash the next big check? The power and finesse angler will most likely be replaced on the winners stand by the angler who masters both techniques and has the specialized rod to function properly to land the lunker of the day.

One thing is certain for sure. The $ 300 pair of sunglasses had very little to do with the five lunkers in the live well of the winning angler that took the cash and the new boat home last week. Take your eyes off the fully adorned angler, with all the endorsement patches on his shirt. Take a close look in the bottom of his boat and see if there are any rods laying there that do not have the labels that match the patches on the shirt! If you see some "Plain Jane" stealth black rods with no glitzy logos or highly visible stickers the angler has fully taken advantage of the services of a custom rod builder to insure his financial future.

Custom Rod Builders

Staff Builder Swampland Rods



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2008 02:53PM by Bill Stevens.

And don't forget one variable, the size of the stream you are casting on and how much brush and how much room do you have to cast. this will dictate the length of rod you use. the same goes for fly rods, plus a whole host of other variables.

bill s.,

very educational stuff. as i said freshwater is not my gig. i guess it doesn't hurt to know whats going on in the F.W. world.

i think from the marketing standpoint, companies who use the age-old techniques will get left in the dust as the current generation of 20-somethings start becoming the driving force of the economy. the age old "four P's of marketing" used to be concrete, but now-a-days that theory is one of many which are theorized to succeed.

on one hand there is the fisherman who wants to buy a rod that comes with a paragraph long description. very few consumers actually know what these descriptions REALLY mean, but it helps them stick their chest out a little further when they yap with their buddies. these are also the fishermen who see kevin van dam wearing a 300 dollar pair of sunglasses and IMMEDIATELY go out and buy the same pair.

on the other hand there are the fishermen who are more of the "it's the carpenter and not to tools" type. they want a well built rod that suits the purpose. they probably could care less about some deflection chart. and when they miss a fish they dont say "well if i would have grabbed the other rod i would have caught that fish."

so how do you market to both types of fishermen? thats a good question. what do i think? build a great rod suited for the geographical region it is being sold. and instead of coming at the customer with tons of technical data like butt diameters and deflection charts, just put the rod in their hands and let it sell itself. dont send a computer nerd to do a salesman's job in other words.

ill tell you this, i dont put ANY technical data on my rods. just "medium," "medium heavy," etc etc. and i have not had ONE customer even bring it up. they know they need a medium rod and when they pick that rod up, instinct will tell them if its right. ive even brought it up with a few customers and all have told me that they like not being confused with a bunch of useless numbers tattooed all over the rod.

anyways, in the words of forrest gump, that's all ive got to say about that.

One more shot Lance L.

I am really sorry that you played the "Gump Card" so early and will not be able to respond to my salvo! )>

Think about it!

You sell rods -

Lance D. on the other side of Houma has two long time customers -

There is a guy going down the bayou in the morning headed to catch a limit of specs with a popping cork. He really only needs one of those 844s you build but if he is smart he will take a spare. Somebody will probably step on the spare while they are slinging trout into the bayboat.

Ronnie E. is headed up into the Spillway to fish the Doiron 100 boat winner take all bass tournament. He has 10 rods in his locker and knows what they were built for and which one to grab! Many of the bass fishermen will surprise you on just how much they know about the rods they use. A custom builder need to have information at his disposal for proper communication when needed. If Ronnie is headed to Falcon, Alabama, Amistad, Florida or any one of a hundred other places he fishes he will probably go to his storage room and select ten more all different. There is absolutely noting written on his rods by a computer nerd.

The custom rod business is just that - Custom!

You don't play Golf with only one club!

good point . but i think i forgot to mention something. my business is not a "custom rod" business. i designed a line of rods and thats what i sell. i know i hang around here on the custom board, but i really dont consider myself a custom builder. i know many here may gasp at that idea....it's just the route i chose. but i bet i sold more rods in my first 3 months of business that most custom builders sold in their first year....and i havnt even started marketing yet (again, the full time job thing gets in the way of how many rods i can build)

i have brochures, and soon a website, that has all the technical data one needs. i just chose, for simplicities sake, to keep all of that information off of my rods. and being that it's a small company, if any customer has a question about line weight or whatever, they can just ask. if t-boo rodrigue is going spec fishing, he knows he needs a medium rod, but he doesnt know that he needs an 844, nor does he need to know that. now when it comes to reaching the more educated fishermen of course i have a strategic marketing plan (to be implemented when i'm ready), but of course those secrets are......uh.......secrets ;)

but back to the original point about lure specific rods. i like the feedback from you and others. it is basically confirming what i assumed in that it is more of a freshwater thing. kevin van dam may need 15 rods for what he does, meanwhile team broussard of the oberto redfish cup only needs a couple. my good friend and fishing partner are planning on fishing one of the redfish tours next year, and i tell you i dont plan on having more than 3 rods in the boat per person.

Lance,
Sorry - don't agree with you - and I fish only the salt.
i.e:
When I trailer my @#$%& Bay to the 10,000 in S.W. Florida I will fish either the flats or the mangrove shorelines for reds or snook. If I fish the mangroves I want to be able to land the jig within 6"-12" of the roots. I use a 6" loomis 721 light action casting rod for the acccuracy. If I want to fish the flats I will use the same rod in the 722 model. More distance - less accuracy. If I want to fish an unweighet soft plastic I will go to a spinning rod.

When I fly fish Cape Cod for stripers I will use a stiff fast action rod when I am using an intermediate line to blind cast. When I am sight casting or when I want to cast a fast sinking line I want a softer tipped rod for accuracy and the ability to load the rod deeper into the blank.

But the most important thing you are missing is the joy of getting to know the different personalities of the various blanks out there - albeit, mostly true with the fly blanks.

For instance, I built a 10wt Dan Craft FT and didn't use it for two years. I couldn't find a line that loaded it to my liking. Then AirFlo came out with the ridged striper cold water line. It is so heavy that it overloaded all my 10wts - even my factory sage.XP. But, guess what, it loaded the Dan Craft 10wt perfectly. So now I love the rod.

There is a lot that you are missing by discounting the pleasure of using different rods for different instances.
Herb

herb,

i get where you are coming from, but let me say this:

1. fly fishing is basically non-existent where i live. louisiana may be sportsman's paradise, but we do not have the species you have in florida (permit, bonefish, inshore tarpon, etc etc). good luck even finding someone here who owns a fly rod.
2. it's my belief that accuracy is in the fisherman, not the rod. now COMFORT is a different situation. that is fisherman-specific
3. more rods than rod holders = a big mess and broken gear

i fully appreciate that every fisherman has his/her own techniques, likes, and dislikes. but when i think of some fisherman having a different rod for (almost) every kind of lure, i think of a duck hunter with a different shotgun for each species of duck.

Lance that really surprises me... inshore saltwater fishing for reds is huge in coastal south carolina. I'd think you would have the same type salt marshes with tailing reds at high tide. When I left the coast about 10 yrs ago it was really taking off and last I heard it's very big.

I completely respect the route you've taken. Each of us have our own paths and really, most of my rods have very similar basic builds. Just some added/deleted details per customer request.

Look at it this way... while a 12 ga shotgun is good all around, guys who compete at shotgun sports don't use an off the rack model, they have adjustable combs and butt plates. Some vent ribs on the barrels raise and lower to alter the point of impact on the shot pattern. They backbore the barrel (cryogenic freezing done on some prior to back boring), they port the sides to reduce recoil. Sporting clays shooters use quick change choke tubes that are swapped station to station and also use different gauges, skeet has 4 different gauges, and trap uses different barrels for singles and doubles. Compare apples to apples. The recreational bass fisherman does just fine with 4 rods, as the hunter does fine with one gun and 4 different chokes. The tournament bass angler has different rods, the competitive shooter has a platform he manipulates to achieve different results depending on the type of target. The shooter can do this off one platform because once the shoot starts, he doesn't change gears.

The rods are really only a reaction to the changing techniques. I fished my first tournament in 1982 and had 3 basic presentations, a Texas Rig, a spinnerbait and a crankbait, though I might occasionally throw a jig. I had a medium action rod I used for the crankbait and a MH I rotated between the T rig, spinnerbait and jig. If the topwater bite was on, I might also throw a Pop R or something similar in the morning or evening. What's interesting is all these baits were roughly the same weight and in a pinch could be thrown on the same rod. This was before we realized the benefits of a soft rod with treble hooks.

Today I may throw anything from a 4" worm with a 3/0 split shot that weighs less than 1/8 oz total to a 6 oz swimbait. It's amazing all the different techniques used today. Heck, I may use 3 different rods for just Texas rigs. I'll throw a 1/16 or 1/32 bullet weight with a small worm on a medium fast. I'll throw my traditional T Rig of a 1/8 to 3/8 bullet weight on a MH fast. I could also throw a 1 oz weight to punch through the grass on a heavy or extra heavy fast. You could use the same rod for all 3, but it wouldn't work well. That's 3 rods for just one technique.

Here's a list of the current rods I use:
7'6" Medium moderate graphite glass for treble hook baits.
7'6" MH moderate graphite glass for big treble hook baits
7'-7'6" Medium fast that I use for weightless plastic, spinnerbaits and small jigs and T rigs
7' Medium light moderate I use for all finesse presentations
7'-7'6" MH fast that I use for jigs, T rigs, smaller swimbaits, large crankbaits, large spinnerbaits, spoons and others
7'-7'6" Heavy fast I use for C rigs, big jigs, frogs, swimbaits, heavy T rigs
7'11" EH fast that I use for big swimbaits

Lance...

I share your opinion as well. My opinion is this...MARKETING!

Paul

alex, the salt water marshes here are VERY similar to yours. but for some reason fly fishing has not taken off. now i live in southEAST louisiana and cannot speak for southWEST LA. i have heard stories of so-and-so's little brother's ex-girlfriend's uncle who LOVES to fly fish for redfish. but i spend a LOT of time in the boat and at the marina and ive yet to actually see someone fly fishing for reds.

i also read in the oberto rules that fly fishing is legal for their tour. ive seen most of the episodes on ESPN and have yet to see anyone use it.

i also agree that you cannot market the "regular" fisherman in the same way you would market the tournament fisherman. nor should you as a business person be trying to sell the same rod to both the regular fisherman and the tournament fisherman.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2008 02:10AM by Lance Lapeyrouse.

Lance - just a couple thoughts:

Bill Steens is pretty much right inwhat he wrote. I fish both fresh (grew up on it) and salt (grew up on it) and a number of our customers fish both, although we do get some bass guys in the shop. The bass folks tend to break down into two groups: (a) they want a rod that will cross several "types" of presentation and lure, rather than carrying one for every imaginable possibility or (b) they want a separate rod for every imaginable possibility. Most of the former have been around the game a long time and understand that a particular rod can be a versatile tool in skilled hands - it's the same idea as a carpenter who can use a router or a dado blade to make a slot in a board, or one who canonly do it one way. Most of the latter group want something that one of the pros just used to win the latest tournament - yup, "marketing". They believe tht having a rod "like Ol' Jim's big red stick" will give them a better chance to win a tournament like "Ol' Jim" just did.

Salt folks are a little more generic in their requirements. It's a matter of target fish, favorite water, and yes, lures or bait. But most often they will say something like "I want a trout rod" or a "red rod", but they understand that a trout rod will often be quite applicable for ligh reds. Same with a cobia rod that ends up catching smaller sharks for the day. One of the primary differences is that the SW folks understand that you never quite know what you're actually gonna catch no matter what your target species might be for the day. The bass chasers don't even want to hear such a thought.

We have two basic approaches. We will build anyone a rod, with the following exception: If a person wants us to build a rod "like" a (name that brand) rod, we wil tell him/her to just go buy that rod. They'll be happy, and so will we; we've found that what they are really sayin is they want us to build it cheaper than they can buy it for, and no matter what we do, they will never be toally satisfied because it wasn't exactly like what they had in mind. Now, if someone wants a stick on a specific blank, we will not offer them any other blank, no matter how close the action might be, because w've found that's not going to satisfy them either. But we will build a rod for them on that specific blank. We've had people come to us with specifications - specific blank, specific grips and reel seat, specific guide layout. We rarely do these because we can't guarantee them (we guarantee all our ow rods) and we know from experience that these folks have those specs from an existing manufactured rod, so we tell them to go buy another one.

We do build custom rods. We do get customers in the shop who sit with us for a while (sometimes a long while) and get measured for grips, discuss their requirements for length and action, talk about guide styles and layout - and none of this has anything to do with thread colors or patterns or decals or even blank color. We go through our inventory of blanks that might be appropriate for the design and if we don't have one that fits, we know enough about what he needs to be able to have our suppliers help us out, and when the new blank comes in we won't build on it until the customer sits with us again. We also build several of our own "standard" designs, so in the "pure" sense of it (according to some of the folks above) I suppose you could say they're not "custom" but they have been developed to meet our market (i.e., the kinds of rods our customers want, within a range of prices our market will bear). Again, we don't build anything "for the rack" - we always start with a customer in the shop and a bare blank. But for "our" designs, we carry a stock several different blanks.

We never argue with a customer. We just sort of follow our rules for taking an order, as summarized above. Most of this comes from sad experience.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

Russ;
That's called wisdom gained through experience!
Very good info. Thank You