Is it absolutely, positively, without question certain that if you use Maderia thread without CP that you will have fish eyes or other trouble? Or is it somehow possible to use Maderia without CP and manage to get finish to behave on it?

IT is somehow possible. I don't know how, but it is. My guess was applying heat boils the silicone and makes the fisheyes much worse. Although some have much worse fisheyes without heat. I have no clue.

Just out of curiosity, what would be the advantages of not using CP? would it be to save a step in the building process?
Keep in mind that I'm a rookie and just looking to learn.
Steven

Some people don't use it because they like the semi-translucent appearance created when you apply finish directly to the thread. Or for going Tartan butt wraps where such bleed-through is actually desired.

.............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2008 04:42PM by Tom Kirkman.

If you're using (or trying to avoid) CP due to the silicone/fisheye issue Billy mentioned, you're likely to get inconsistant results as the amount of silicone on the thread can vary in different parts of the spool. I'm using two different shades of green right now where the first few hundred yards worked well with a single coat of CP. 3-4 rods later, two coats were needed and I even got a few fisheyes after two coats.

If you get an answer of "you don't need CP on number XXXX", chances are that person just hasn't used enough of it to have found a high silicone concentration on it, YET.

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

Thanks. My question now is, if there is this much silicone in Maderia thread, what does this do to the threads ability to bind the guide to the blank? Will it mean that the guide will tend to slide around? Will it come loose quicker than if you had used regular Gudebrode type thread? There seems to be some questions about long term durability that I can't find answers to. I did search a bit but didn't find anything that addressed this. Do Maderia users feel confident binding their guides with something that has silicone in it?

Sliding around isn't an issue. Once it's packed and finished, it's not going to go anywhere. I've hung some pretty big fish on rods with a single over-wrap of Madeira w/o any problems at all.

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

Peter, I have done some tartans with Maderia. I have had no problems with fisheyes when I applied the finish. I would suggest that you get a dowel rod and give it a try before you do it on a rod. Before you do this, paint the dowel rod to the color of the rod you would be using to simulate the color of the rod.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

can the silicon be washed out with water and detergent of some type?

Like Jim, I have been using a lot of polyester threads for my butt wraps and guide wraps. I normally use Mettler Polysheen #40. I always use CP on the butt wrap unless I am doing a Tartan. The guide wraps I don't use CP on the overwrap. I recently posted a photo of a Rattlesnake foregrip going straight into the stripper guide. I didn't use CP on the guide wrap and used Mettler Polysheen thread in a double over wrap. I used a thin layer of finish, enough to soak into the thread but only enough so I could still see the individual thread structure. I applied another heavier coat 24 hours later and flamed the finish. There are absolutely no fisheyes. I'm not saying this doesn't happen or won't happen. I'm just saying that in my experience, by using a very thin layer of finish first, the thread doesn't seem to repel anything like if you used a heavier coat. I also didn't use CP in the Tiger wrap on the same rod and there are no fisheyes. Might be just dumb luck. I don't know. Maybe Mettler doesn't have the silicon in the thread?


Regards
Mark
Outback Rods

Thanks Tom,
After looking at Jim's pics I see exactly what you mean. They look great.
Through dumb luck, I put a nylon red guide wrap over a metallic gold under wrap without CP and it looked like a candy apple red. Ha Ha, I made something cool without even knowing what I was doing!!!!
Steven

Mark Fisher's comment may just be the most important I've read regarding the use of polyester threads. Like Mark, I did some experimenting with Mettler Polysheen #40 with no CP. My test wraps were an inch or so long and I heaped on the epoxy to see how it reacted on Mettler. The epoxy shifted in all directions, and I never did wrap a rod with Mettler.

But I didn't try applying just enough to barely soak the threads. That just may be a technique that might work for more builders. I'll be giving it a try.

Thanks Mark,

Jeff Shafer

as the typical polyester threads are sewing machine threads the key quality control issues are :-
thread diameter consistency ( strength )
&
thread colour consistency
thread lubrication ( the silicone bit ) is not a key quality control issue for either the manufacturer or the machine user as it is intended to lubricate the interface between the thread and the eye of the needle and there is some carryover of lubricant on the needle involved in the sewing machine game.
There is simply high lubricant variability between spools of thread and sections of thread within a spool as this is not a quality control issue for the manufacturer.
Its just dumb luck if you get a spool with a low level of the silicon lubricant.
When you find one , guard it with your life......................there will be a lot of jealous rodbuilders out there.

Don't spread it around....................but I do 1000 times the sewing my missus does.............. rodbags, reel bags, tarpaulins & a multitude of odds & ends.............. polyester thread is my preference for its UV stability & hard wearing characteristics in outdoor useage.
& have destroyed a couple of sewing machines pushing them beyond their designed capacity & useage.
When sewing plastic/vinyl coated fabrics & neoprene foams etc a highly lubricated thread is a valuable & necessary possession.
Its a lottery.
I have a friend with an embroidery business & another with a different type of sewing business....................I can assure you that thread lubrication in specialised applications for them is just as much a problem in one direction as it is for us in rodbuilding in the opposite direction...................but it doesn't bother 99.99% of general sewing thread use................. so its not an issue for the manufacturer.

DenisB