I note a number of references to the problem of fisheyes in finish coats with Madeira Polyneon due to the silicone lubricant treatment of the thread for its primary purpose of sewing machine use.
The auto spray industry uses an anti silicon additive in respraying vehicles treated with silicone polishes.
This is also used in the surfboard manufacturing industry with polyester resins.
The additive is simply referred to as "anti-silicon drops " and is available at auto paint suppliers.
this is used at a rate in the auto spray situation of 2 drops per can of paint.
I have only recently started to use Madeira Polyneon & having some of the anti- silicone drops on hand & not being a fan of waterbased acrylic CPs ( still yet to try Andy's new one - despite having it for a couple of weeks now ).
I used it very successfully with my clear auto acrylic 50:50 with thinners as my CP ( this is of the "old type" smelly CP )
Because of the small batch sizes of rodbuilding CP , I use one drop from the smallest syringe needle I can get my hands on : to 200ml of my thinned CP in a bottle. ( note needle - not direct from the syringe ).
fisheye problems with Madeira.................. GONE.

I do not know if this treatment will work in waterbased CP ( the milky ones ) or whether it is compatible with use directly in epoxy mixes.................... some of you out there might like to try it on a test piece.

What I do works for me so I have never had the need to try it in other CPs or directly in epoxy . It seems to deal with the occasional sweaty fingers syndrome as well.

The treatment is only used in the first coat ontop of the suspect base material, in my own use and in automotive & surfboard uses................. it is not required in subsequent coats.

Note: use too many drops of the anti silicone treatment & you can get other problems .............so don't over-treat if you try it.

Feedback from trial use in waterbased CPs or directly in epoxy would be a useful addition to the rodbuilding knowledge base & may help solve the problem with these other CP materials & techniques.

It certainly works with clear acrylic hydrocarbon solutions using general purpose auto thinners as a CP and solves the fish-eye problem which can be encountered with standard sewing machine threads, and sweaty fingers on the thread, for me.
DenisB

Hello Denis,
If you are hesitant to name the anti-silicon product on the board, please email the name to me at penzzz@msn.com. I would love to experiment with this product as an additive to epoxy. I don't use color preserver on my fly rods and would love to use some of the Madeira or other threads that for me have repelled straight epoxy.

Jeff Shafer

Good idea Denis, ........but you're still using colour preserver, which has been the way around fisheyes with Madeira for a while now. Directly into the epoxy as a test would be a btter investigation into how well it would work. The problem with Madeira has come whenever you are considering a "No CP" translucent look with epoxy direct to thread.

I have never had a problem with Madeira thread and epoxy with no CP. Never got the fisheyes. I have used Threadmaster and LS Supreme finishes with no special techniques.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Ted
I am not after the translucent effect of epoxy without CP.
I simply like the deeper lustre & colour I achieve from the bindings ( mostly natural nylon) I get with the old technology CP thinned down and merely sealing the filaments in the thread rather than a coating sealing more over the thread in a layer that you get with the waterbased CPs more in favour today. As with just about everything in rod building........... to each his own & beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I have carried over that approach to polyester threads, but the visual effect with the polyester threads is not quite the same as with nylon.

Jeff
My reticence to naming the product rather than describing what it is.....................is merely that I source a product here in OZ ( Australia ) from a local company & am pretty sure that a product of that brand & description is unlikely to be available outside OZ.
It comes in a little plastic bottle about the size of eye drop bottles.
The bottle clearly identifies compatibility with nitrocellulose & acrylics but warns compatibility with 2- pack finishes needs to be tested before use.
It is compatible with polyester 2-pack but epoxy is an unknown.
For the record;
the product is K&H " anti-silicone drops" ...................... I guessed that would not have been more informative than my prev post.
I suggest an enquiry about "anti-silicone" drops at your local auto paint agency should come up with the goods.
Let us all know how you go in a test with adding it to epoxy, assuming you can source an equivalent in your area. I would be pretty sure it will be there as it is used pretty universally in the auto repair trade, who have to deal with repairs to vehicles which have been polished with silicone polishes & the darn stuff tracks over everything around....................just like a smear of epoxy mix you did not realise was on your finger.. The only difference is we can see the expoxy after the event - the darn smears of silicone polish are pretty well invisible to the naked eye of the auto spray painter............... but they sure can see the fish-eyes as the paint dries.

Jim
You lucky devil............... may the force stay with you............ and your luck hold.
It seems to be a patchy issue with madeira.

DenisB

What TEd was saying is if you apply CP thre are no issues with MAdeira & epoxy compatibility. So you adding those drops to teh CP is has no bearing at all to prevent the fisheyes.

G'day Dennis,

I know a lot of people here in OZ don't like using Speed thread sealer and filler but I use it on madeira with no problems at all. The thread colour stays bright and have no troubles with epoxy going on. It's like water to use and isn't affected by hot or cold weather when applying. At $5.00 a bottle hard to pass up seeing as you don't have mix/thin etc just use straight out of the bottle. Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers, Jan.

All auto paint stores, parts stores that sell paint and some house paint stores sell Fisheye Preventer, it's hard to find the pure silicone type that you use by the drop, most are rereduced ,using a urthane type reducer.That product has a mixing ratio of 1 - 2 cap fulls per gun cup. I have used it, in Threadmaster, with some success.

I'm currently experimenting with another automotive paint product over Madeira, and so far the results are impressive.

Larry
Thanks for that info
I had not come across the diluted version..................my luck being put onto the pure stuff some years ago by a mate who is a surfboard manufacturer and who used it.
I had only been using it in airbrush paint on my lures when I had troublesome ones that apparently became surface contaminated by something in the workshop.
I guess if the diluted version works in threadmaster there might be even less likelihood of compatibility issues with the concentrated stuff in epoxy.

Billy
with the technique I used with light coats of thinned acrylic CP I did run into fisheye problems after CP with the Madeira. I thought this was probably because the light tinned coats of CP were fisheying themselves , leaving some silicone affected thread still exposed, that was when I added the anti-silicone drops and it fixed my problem.
It was only very recently that I thought to post the info about the 'drops' for the interest of others who might like to go the next step into the unknown and try them directly into epoxy.
From Larry's response he was already there and with some success.

All good info for everyone, but caution is warranted if anyone tries this.
DenisB

Jan
All C2 usually add up to a full dollar at the end of the day & are valued.

Speed filler in OZ is the same ' type ' of auto acrylic in hydrocarbon solution that I use.
the auto acrylics in general have an inherent issue for us rodbuilders in that they are more brittle than the rod blank & the epoxy & when used as a heavy coating as a CP & can result in cracking of the CP layer at the end of the guide foot as a result of heavy rod deflection.
ie
where this type of CP ends up as a complete layer ( like a layer of paint on a wall ) on top of the threads and binds the threads into a layer of the CP.

To date I have not been a fan of the waterbased acrylics ( STILL have not tried Andy's Chromaseal............... bottle still unopened )
So my approach to using the auto type acrylics as a CP has been to thin the CP down & use it in a way to seal the filiaments in the thread without significantly "gluing " the threads together.............. subsequent epoxy fills between the threads - but does not turn the binding translucent - and cracking at the end of the guide foot is a rare occurrence.
Thats my technique & C2
The bottom line .............. as many on the forum have said before...............is that virtually all of us have our own adaptions of basic technique and when you find something that works for you........ stick to it, unless you find or hear of something better & you test it to check the result & where appropriate you have a new "best" technique you can adopt .
That's where the C2 of each of us is valuable & the dialogue is the huge value of the forum.
DenisB