is there a specific reason for using thread that needs cp instead of using ncp?very interested.

James,

NCP or Opaque thread has a bit of a dull finish whereas regular nylon has a bright finish. Some builders want to use CP to perserve the brightness of the color when they use regular nylon thread. Opaque threads are treated with chalk so no light can pass through the nylon thread and the dye is not affected. The chalk gives the thread a duller appearance. Regular nylon thread is transluscent and light can pass through it and dull the brightness of the dye so many rod builders want to use a quality color perserver. I will be happy to send you a sample of the opaque thread and regular thread in the same color so you can see the difference in materials and experiment with both.

Many Thanks,

Robbie Smith
FishHawk Threads

Robbie certainly knows what he is talking about!! Personal preference! NCP thread, to me, looks like flat paint while nylon remains bright and vibrant. I use white NCP but no other one

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

thanks Robbie and Mike for your help.you have been very helpful.i have both kinds of thread and some cp but have not had the guts and the time to try the regular thred.i guess it is about time to get with the program.thanks again,jim.

Your question is very interesting so I will take it a step further. Do you guys see the need to continue to produce an Opaque style thread? OEM`s do not ask for it. It costs about the same to produce but it tends to sit on the shelf longer than regular thread which does increase cost. Any feedback will be appreciated.

Robbie

I really can't speak for anyone else but all I have ever used is the white. I THINK it's used by some in weaving and I think it's also used in Tartan wraps.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

We're using Robbie's Opaque and if you like the colors "raw", wait till you see them under CP! They just catch your eye and won't let go!

The CP we use is Andy Dear's new formula - superb stuff. Another choice is the current run of 811 cut with 30% denatured alcohol.

We never do a rod without CP, no matter what the brand of tthread, and no matter if it's NCP or not.. The reasons are too numerous for the bandwidth here but trust me, it's all based on experience.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

Interesting- are we talking just decorative wraps- or ar we talking guide wraps. I was under the impression that CP shouldn't be used on thread over guide wraps- as it prevents the final finish from soaking into the thread and making strong contact with the blank- curious on other's thoughts on the guide wraps.

It is the thread that is holding the guides on the blank, the epoxy is just a covering. I have used CP many times on guides without any bad affects. As long as you get a good soaking first coat of CP on, you should have no problems using it. There are times I do not use CP on guide wraps, but thats when I want the thread to darken.

Mike- it would seem to me that as a rod is flexing the thread around a guide would be under varying levels of stress. I am mostly thinking now about the "tunnels" around the guide feet. It would seem that if this void were completely filled with finish it would protect and support the thread - from both sides of the thread inside and outside.

I suppose syringes and such can be used to squirt finish into the tunnel, but not sure this is as effective as letting the finish soak into and "surround" the thread so to speak. Not trying to start a debate, and I may be over thinking the whole thing, but I have heard similar reasoning for not using CP on guides from some top execs in the rod building business.

Also I understand proper guide foot prep may eliminate some of the tunnel "issues"

I haven't been at this long and have done guides both ways- with and without CP, but they haven't seen enough use as of yet to tell if there may be an issue or not. I do know it is more difficult to fil the tunnels when CP is used, and I also get more air pockets in the tunnel when using CP, and then applying the finish- ocassionally a large air bubble will form at the opening to the tunnel- easy enough to take care of whne caught- but sugggests that there is an air pocket forming when using CP.

Personally I would prefer to always use CP- if I can get comfortable with the idea that it does not make for an inferior guide wrap.

Wraps made with CP are within 10% of the total strength of those made without, and even then, you will ruin a guide before you will break or tear out the guide from the wrap. Wraps made with CP are stronger than they need to be so the old myth about them being inherently weak is just that, a myth.

NCP thread still has a place. It's often used for quick repairs as it often cuts out a step. In the lighter colors it allows you to add trims and underwraps without worrying about darkening over the top of dark colored blanks (CP can't perform miracles). I have no idea what the sales figures are but I know that most custom builders do at least keep some NCP on hand for tasks like these.

................

Thanks Tom- sounds like I can go back to using regular nylon and CP on my guide wraps- no worries then.


(Might also be time for me to get some updated video tutorials- great to have you and this site to dispel some of the old myths)

The CP will soak in and provide the "flats" at the edges of the guide feet just as epoxy would if you weren't using CP.

I would still use a toothpick to put a drop or two of epoxy at the tunnel openings just to make sure you get those filled and/or sealed.

............

Mark,
This is an old discussion. Just go up to the search function and type in CP vs. No CP and you will get sufficient posts to keep you busy reading for a week. the argument regarding strength is acutally a moot argument since tests show that the guides bend and are deformed before any guide will come loose. Personally I don't know if I want to catch fish large enough to deform the guides on a rod.

Robbie,
Back in 1978 or there abouts, I offered a rod building clss through the college I was teaching. For demonstration purposes I built a flyrod from a fenwick blank, with Fugi single foot guides with the glow in the dark shock rings, used NCP thread. I put a Chevron Butt wrap to demonstrate how to do those kinds of decorative wraps. I miantain that rod is the single ugliest rod I have ever built. I keep it around the shop to show to a customer who wants to see what an NCP wrapped rod would look like. To answer your question, I won't ever build a rod with NCP thread. As Mike Barkley mentions some folks use white NCP thread for butt wraps and weaves.

Mike Blomme

when i posted this question,i did not realize that i would get this much info.all good i might add.i better wrap a rod with regular thread and try to get better results.i'll give it a try.thanks again for your help.
jim.

Wow
CP or not CP
How many ways are there to skin a cat & what are you trying to do with the cat skin,
There aren't many CP's I havent tried but am waiting patiently for my bottle of Andy's new one to try.
As for skinning cats
What are you trying to use the CP to do
a) fill all the voids in the binding
or
b) seal the filaments in the binding thread
I use CP to do the latter & for that purpose I still use clear acrylic with 50:50 thinners ( automotive type).
Yep seen all the stuff on the waterbased CPs & tried them..........................they are doing something different than what I want to do with a CP. I just want to stop the epoxy from filling the filaments in the thread and turning the binding translucent. The epoxy coating then soaks ( 'wicks' ) all the way in to the blank around the guide foot etc ( but I agree that is not necessary for strength )
as for use of NCP or plain nylon etc
I have a cupboard full of NCP from when it first came out................. dullest bindings I ever did & thats where the spools stayed except for white.
The depth of colour & lustre of the finished work is far better with plain nylon .
I am yet to find a waterbased CP that is truly clear..................here's hoping Andy ???
Interesting advice about the chalk additive in NCP...............it really is like chalk & cheese..........plain nylon forever !!!!.
Depth of colour with polyester bindings isn't quite as good as nylon to me but nylon thread is a dying consumer item outside of the fishing industry it seems...............OH&S issues in the manufacturing process I'm told. So colour ranges have slimmed down.
Have been trying to find a really blood red plain nylon for the last 15 yrs & still looking ( the original was a Japanese product ).

Anyone able to shed any light on the supposed OH&S issues with nylon thread manufacture..

Used the new CP from Lamar for the first time last night. The only CP I had used previously was the flex coat.

In comparison the Lamar CP is much thinner, and not nearly as milky white as the flex coat. I did have to change my application strategy. I am used to applying the flex coat CP with the rod turning at a fairly high RPM. This helps get a very smooth thin coat as I spread the CP out with a brush at high rpm. This didn't work so well with the new Lamar CP as it frothed and produced many air bubbles at the high rpm. Just had to slow the rod down and everything was fine. So far I like the way the it looks, will be doing a second coat and then finish over the weekend.

Denis,

The nicest red I have found is the Candy Apple Red made by Guberod, 521-335 and no CP over it.

DR

Robbie,

I use the NCP colors in the lighter shades, mostly for trim. However, I used NCP light blue on a wrap with dark blue metallic underwraps and black trim and it looked outstanding. Great contrast provided by the light color of the NCP against the dark blue.

This is the only wrap I've made with NCP in about 12 years so I wouldn't say it's in high demand. I would find alternatives if NCP wasn't availabel, but I would keep the white in stock. I would imagine that moves the fastest of any NCP color.

Terry