Tom's answer in an earlier post saying the carbon skinned grips are lighter got me thinking and I couldn't find anything answering this...

Guides+Wrap+Epoxy+Lighter handle = tip heavy rod (even with smaller/micro guides)

Now - Add weight to the very end of the blank to balance the rod...

What would the impact be to "sensitivity" or the perceived sensitivity? I understand that adding weight supposedly decreases sensitivity, but does adding that weigh on the butt not have the same impact?

I suppose you could compensate somewhat by a longer handle to move the reel up closer to the balance point, but how would you calulate that before you built the rod or installed the handle and reel seat?

This topic ahs been and will continue to be debated to death. In an absolute engineering perspective anything that adds weight to the rod hurts, if you held a bare blank with a string attached to the tip that is as sensitive as it will ever be. To me it is a bit of a misnomer to say anyone can build a rod that is “more sensitive”, the inherent properties of the blank determine the limits of how sensitive a rod can ever be, it is our job to reduce that sensitivity by the least amount possible. The only way we can do that is to add the least amount of weight possible to the finished rod.

Adding balance weights to improve fishability is a whole different topic. Even though I sell my balance kits I don’t use them automatically on every rod that I build. To me the balance weights only improve the fishability of long powerful rods used in “tip up” bottom fishing techniques. I use a 1oz Carolina Rig a lot, I fish it with a 7’6” Flippin Stick blank. I couldn’t imagine fishing this rig without the balance weights, I rally like that weightless tip feel. On the other hand crankbaits or spinnerbaits I cant see any reason to use balance weights at all.

There would be a lot to consider here. On the one hand, by adding weight to the butt you'd reduce sensitivity by adding weight without adding any additional stiffness to the rod. But, sensitivy comes in so many forms that on the other hand you might be increasing sensitivity by providing the angler with a tool that he wouldn't tire as quickly with - leaving him more alert to changes in feel, line movement, tip movement, etc.

The whole issue of sensitivity involves so many aspects outside of just weight and stiffness, that you're going to be hard pressed to ever nail down any definitive answer unless you specify one particular aspect involved.

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We were typing at the same time. I like what Mike said in his first paragraph about doing the least possible to reduce whatever inherent sensitivity is there to begin with.

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i believe that rod balance is highly overrated.
when you say rod balance, does it have a 1ounce lure at the otehr end? how about when you change the lure weight is it balance? what if there's no lure?
when you fish is the butt stuck in your underarm? or you're balancing it in your hand be cause" the rod is balanced".

Generally the lure would be in the water while you're using the rod so you wouldn't be attempting to balance that weight, just the naked rod with reel attached.

Although like yourself, I think in most situations balancing is unnecessary unless the customer deems it absolutely necessary for some reason or the other that makes good sense to him/her.

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Fishign with an unbalanced rod is pretty uncomfortable, compared to fishing with one which is balanced. My first rods were all tip heavy, butts were too short and the split grips on longer rods made them really unpleasant to fish. Onc I figured a few things out, I was able to properly balance rods, and it really does make a big difference when on the water.

Now fo the discalimer:
The majority of the fishing I do is with the weight on the bottom, and a touch of slack/belly in the line. So 1oz or 5 pouinds weighs teh same when both are laying on teh bottom.

Copied this from a post I placed last year

“while adding weight to balance a rod may take away from its sensitivity, it adds to its bite detection.

Example;
If your rod is tip heavy; its natural tendency is to pull down towards the water and fish.
If a fish lightly picks up you bait just slightly moving off (which often happens while bass fishing in structure) you will not feel the bite as well (or at all) because your rods tip is trying to go the direction of the fish anyway. The only thing stopping it are the restraints being put on it by your hand and wrist.

If you rod is tip light; its natural tendency is float up and away from the fish and water.
Now, “If a fish lightly picks up your bait just slightly moving off” it stops dead the rods tendency to float up and reverses the direction.

This action in itself increases your awareness that something is happening at the end of you line “Increased bit detection”

Also a rod that is tip light allows your hand to be in a more relaxed state while fishing allowing for increased sensitivity and comfort simply because you are not fighting the weight of the rods tip to keep it up out of the water”

Which reduces strain and fatigue to the wrist enabling you to better concentrate on the fishing, and not the pain in you wrist, which by allowing you to focus better on the fishing. Increases bite detection even more.


Copied form a post I made on another site in answer to simular question as Ray's post

I can’t speak for any one else but I balance mine with the reel on, line on, threaded through guides;

What I do is to balance it so that the tip is neutral to minus (tip tends to float up) weight, when held in horizontal positions 3:00 or 9:00 O’clock depending on if you are right or left handed.

That way I know that any angle above that automatically has the rod “tip light”

Now the only rods I do this with are slack line technique rods were I tend to hold the tip up. (Worm, jig, Tube, dropshot, shaky head ECT.)

When fishing tight line techniques (spinner baits, crank baits, buzz baits, top waters, jerk baits ECT.) I do not bother to balance these rods. Some reasons

1-I almost always fish these rods tip down so I tend to make them butt light so the tip floats down instead

2- The lures on tight line techniques create so much drag that it negates the advantages of balancing the rod


Emory;

I do not balance a rod to increase sensitivity. (Although I have seen no proof that it decreases sensitivity in actual field use)

I balance a rod to increase bite detection and comfort.

To me making a rod more bite detectable, that also allows me to concentrate on the fishing because it is not causing undo fatigue, makes it more sensitive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2008 09:34PM by Steve Gardner.

Sounds like the simple answer is - Yes, adding weight even to the butt still reduces sensitivity.

Volume 6 #6 is pretty handy for balancing rods info. Forhan's Page 18 article on bass rod weighting pretty much sounds like some of the other comments made here.

I like how Mike said "our job to reduce that sensitivity by the least amount possible. The only way we can do that is to add the least amount of weight possible to the finished rod." I think that is probably the best way I've ever seen it described. I'm going to start using that if you don't mind!

Sensitivity - hmmm.

Let me see now. First we have the weight of the reel. Maybe a half-pound or more? Didn't see anything above about balance with the reel mounted, and what happens when you change reels.

Next we have the weight of line (both actual weight-per-foot, lb-test-weight, and stretch). That adds to the effective weight of the reel, no? Except for the several yards of line out there on or in the water when you cast.

Then, as mentioned above, how 'bout the weight of the lure before the cast, or after it, or during the retrieve - wait, there's another point, the weight of the line and lure at the end of the cast, or at any point during the retrieve.

Ah, wait, we also have to consider if the line is wet. That'll change the balance too.

Surely you jest, you might say. Well, no. Weight and balance do indeed affect what we think sensitivity is. But think about this: "modern" materials are widely assumed to be more sensitive than, say bamboo. We have modulus, we have lightness, we have all sorts of physical parameters that add or detract from "sensitivity". Then how do you account for the fact that anyone wielding a 2-wt bamboo wand will tell you he can "feel" the fish BEFORE the bait is taken?

Light weight does not automatically equal sensitivity. In practical terms, most custom rods are measurably lighter than most store bought rods of comparable design or specs. There's also a practical limit to making a particular rod design for a particular application so light as to be useless for the application. How light should a tuna stick or a grouper rod be? How sensitive?

Interesting question and discussion. Not sure there's an actual answer.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

We as a group are fortunate in that we have attained the skills necessary to construct our fishing tools in such a way that they are taylored to our individual tastes and end uses. No longer are we handcuffed by what is available "off the shelf" Human nature drives us all to occasionally say, "Hey - my way is best"....and it is........for me.

I agree with the answer of several posters.

When you are fresh on a fishing trip, it is easy to take a badly balanced rod - i.e. very tip heavy - hold it and detect bites.
However, as the day wears on, you get more and more tires; and it is less and less comforatable to hold a tip heavy rod. Thus, many bites are missed late in the day due to a tip heavy rod.

So, Yes, I do balance rods to make them reasonably balanced with no lure on the rod, or line on the reel. It is important to not add so much weight that the total weight of the rig itself becomes uncomforatable.
So, it is impoortant to have the right butt length, the correct reel, all to acheive a decent balance. Then, if you need to add a portion of an oz, or even an oz of weight to the extreme butt of the rod - so be it and enjoy the comfort of a rod that floats in your hand.

Do NOT put weight up the inside of the rod. Much of the weight will end up being dead weight and not doing anything to achieve balance. The idea is that you want as long a balance arm possible to achieve the maximum balance deflection with the minimum weight. This is achieved by putting mass balance at the extreme butt of the rod. Either use a balancer kit, or use lead tape - wrapped on the OUTSIDE of the butt - prior to putting a handle on the blank.

Do NOT add weight so that it is just dead weight. You now have a very very heavy rod, that may be balanced, but is still uncomfortable to fish - simply due to the heavy bulk and weight of the rig.

Take care
Roger

Well not to be a party pooper.
I think a well balanced rod is one that puts fish on the table that will go good with my veggies!

"enjoy the comfort of a rod that floats in your hand."

Wish I had come up with that statement!
Pretty well describes what I strive to achieve in a rod.

I had not picked up on that particular statement, but floating IS good. I like the idea of attempting to have the rod/reel feel the same in your hand as holding the reel in your hand without the rod there. If that is achieved, then changing reels or line size will not change that feel. Done some work recently to factory reels to lighten them. Removing weight from parts that are IMO overbuilt, being careful not to sacrifice strength. A little grinding here, a little drilling there. Reduced the weight of a 9.6 oz. reel by .96 oz. A little time consuming but a sufficiently significant difference. Forgive me for straying from rods being the central theme.

It may be helpful to users of this board if those commenting on "sensitivity" and "balance" issues qualified their responses by describing the types of rods they were building and what was the intended use. If you are building rods for fishermen the understanding and proper use of build techniques pertaining to both of these issues can become quite important. Some highly skilled fishermen may want some "balanced" and some not on the same day of use. Fishermen normally will tell you that their success on any given day is linked to "feel". Feel may be quantified by combining overall weight, balance and ergonometrics factors to accomplish that "floating" feel without playing head games and using the marketing term of "helium".

Gon Fishn

Good point Bill;
I build almost exclusively bass rods. Intended to be held while fishing were feeling is more important then sight most of the time.
Were a person may be making in upwards to 2000 casts a day and having a tip heavy rod absolutely wears the wrist out. Especially when flipping or pitching slightly heavier rods.

Bill - tht is one of the biggest problems with these posts - you have no idea what the person giving advice is basing their experiances on. To a newbie, he might thing the only way to build a casting rod is with split grips, reel seat, no foregrip, adn a tiny micro guide tip top. THen he'll take the rod and try using it for Tarpon, and have a totally useless rod.

I've pretty much talked myself out of the bass rod market. My local customers were bringing damaging the rods pretty regular to the point I wasn't getting new rods out the door as quickly as necessary.
The " I need it back for a tourney", or whatever in a week was more stressful than I wanted it to be. I held a few rodbuilding classes and let them build their own rods.
Strangely a few still go for the high end/ more fragile lightest blanks and builds, but most when they had to find the blanks/materials/build quickly themselves started looking for a little more durable multi modulus or lower modulus product.
The high end, lightest of everything guys started building backup rods that are waiting for them to blowup their prior builds.

That is one of the nice things about making the balance weights adjustable. By just unscrewing the bumper and changing the weights around you can achieve whatever amount of balance feels most comfortable to you.

Also, like Roger said don’t try to balance the rod by adding weight inside the blank, it ends up taking a lot more weight to get the same balance effect as you get using large diameter weights entirely cantilevered off the end of the blank.