Had a guy in the shop today wanting a 7 foot Med-lite walleye rod like the Berkley he brought in, only a little lighter. I handed him a really nice 7' 2 pc. walleye rod I had, he smiled, said it felt great (was much better than his Berkley), and then asked for a one pc. because they are so much more sensitive!

Where did all this nonsense start in the first place???

It's your job as a custom rod builder to educate him. Ask him why a 2-piece is less sensitive and then educate him. You should have the facts, if not, do a search here and gather that information.

.................................

It's a tough one to get past, Marc. Even when I educate one on this, his friends keep drilling the old beliefs into him and he winds up going back to "I want a one piece." I give up, seriously. I cannot beat that old myth around here. I feel yer pain.

I have several two piece myself, of course.

Putter
Williston, ND

i like my 6 piece but my 5 piece is so much more sensitive. it often needs a hug after a long day whereas my 6 pc is often standoff-ish.

eric
fresno, ca.

Thanks Guys!!! Glad it is not just me. I did a blinfolded sensitivity test last week with 2 local guides - handed them a one pc., then a 2 pc.. Neither guide could pick which was the one pc. and which was the two pc. - one of them even said the two pc. felt a little better, yesterday he just ordered a 6'6" one pc. walleye rod.

At least the ice is finally off the lake!!!

Thanks,
Marc

There will be a difference, but as you found out, under practical applications the human hand isn't likely to be able to tell any difference.

.............

The Berkley is thought to be more "sensitive" probably because the lable showing 1.18 MM Super Modulus says so - what label do you use? Jimi can provide a fitting upgrade quite easily - }>

Not a bad idea Bill. The more people I work with, the more I see that most fishermen's beliefs are based on marketing than facts. Just a question for you Bill, I build mostly for walleye and musky guys, can you ever get a bass guy to go two pc.??

I'll let Bill answer you, but I'd add this - most bass fishermen don't need 2-piece rods as everything about their vehicles and boats has been set up for 1-piece rods. Granted, they've also been indoctrinated to the idea that 2-piece rods are somehow inferior but for the most part, they have no need of the storage or transportation advantages offered by 2-piece rods in situations where you don't have large tow vehicles or long rod locker boxes in your boat.

.............

Well I hope one piece rods are not the cause of global warming:

I'm a new builder...and personally prefer a one piece rod. I personally, think given all things equal, the one piece would logically "feel" more sensitive/better. Although I would love to be proven wrong. Is there some kind of OBJECTIVE FACTS that I'm missing?
Now I do believe there is a big subjective element and overcoming subjectivity is like overcoming Mt. Everest.
I would enjoy the ease of transportation and handling of a two piece rod greatly, but I prefer to fish more often that transport and handling. So I put up with it!

Now let me tell you the ignorant little I know: I've felt two piece and four piece rods, high dollar, blah..., and to me the two piece had a much better "feel" than the four piece. The four piece felt "bulky". Obviously I'm referring to fly rods, but I extrapolate this information to my one piece rods.

And so goes the question.

Is there objective data, studies that I need to know? Or is this a subject opinion like "rod spine" that can go-on forever?

If this is a subjective issue, then I can tell you that most fisherman will be turned off by the tone of the argument being "higher that thou".
Thoughts/beliefs are very POWERFUL and people have opinions that need to be respected, undisputed objective data can be rammed down their throat., pun intended.

Thank you for your time,

~Mark

Here's the point I've tried to make about rod sensitivity over a number of years but I don't think I've got too many people to buy into it: the benefit in rod sensitivity is limited to the human body's ability to react to it. Translated into terms of fishing success (presumeably hooking up to and landing fish), what difference is there in the intensity of "feeling the bite" as long as you're feeling the bite? If I were to tap you lightly on the shoulder - you feel the tap and react to it. If I were to tap you more firmly on the shoulder - you would feel it as well. Regardless of the intensity of the "tap" - you felt it and responded in the same manner. The same prinicple applies when it comes to fishing rods - when you feel it, you feel it and you react to it the same way reagrdless of the intensity of the feel.

When graphite became the standard it offered a significant advantage in sensitivity over fiberglass. Bites that previously were not detectable by feel suddenly became apparent. I may be in the minority here but I think the improvements in graphite technology since that time have made for better performing rods overall but really haven't offered any real advantage in the user's ability to "hook-up" through bite detection. I believe the limitations of human response is one of he reasons that boron and other materials have never really revolutionized the industry in the same way that graphite technology did; there wasn't a clear benefit versus cost relationship in the use of the new material.

We've all read that there are evolving technologies that are going to offer us better blanks. It is probably true that we can expect better rods but I'm doubtful that the improved techology will result in improved catching, at least when it comes to bite detection because our response to the bite isn't going to change. I don't know that I have had any converts to this thinking though - when people know what they want they want it and aren't often going to let opposing opinions stand in their way.

Marc,
Being a veteran of fishing fly rods from bamboo through graphite I now welcome the four piece rods as they just transport easier. Recently I've been introduced by Putter and others to walleye fishing. My biggest problem is transporting 6'6" or 7' rods. I'd love to know what two piece blank you are using for this purpose. I'm eager to build a two piece for jigging.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Sam,
If I wasn't already a believer, your response would have made me one! I agree with you that there is a limit to what we feel and perception is a lot more real to some than reality. I have a friend that still claims that the "helium" inside the butt of a Kistler rod makes an obvious difference LOL!!

I'm in the middle of walleye tournament country and EVERY pro uses different equipment and one will swear by pulling meat on harnesses and the other will swear by Reef Runners and so on!! They are very firm in their conviction and none are more successful that the other! I think most anglers are going to do what they feel confident with and we aren't going to convince them otherwise with something as mundane as FACTS.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

No offense, so keep your panties on!

FACTS are what us "non-believers" are trying to ascertain!

Circular reasoning justifying opinions and translating into "facts" is all we got so far!

But please, if its only opinions this thread needs to end.

~Mark

Marc;
Don’t know about Bill, but as someone who builds almost exclusively bass rods you can’t get me to build a two piece. Even when requested by a client. I will send them some were else.
The only exception being an extending handle like what are used on flipping sticks, and that’s because some times it’s the only I can get them. But even then on my personal rods I will epoxy them in place

Sam I understand your thought process, but completely disagree. If you are in a room full of people talking, listening, taking in the sights, and I lightly tap you on the shoulder you most likely will not feel it. When I taped you again harder you would most likely take note.
Same on the lake, if you are concentrating with out any distractions, focused, in tune with what is happening on the other end of the line. You most likely might feel the lightest of taps.
But if you’re talking with your fishing buddy watching the birds or bathing suits bouncing in the waves. You will most likely not feel the light taps.

I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve told one of my partners to set the hook, because as they were talking to me and I looking at them saw the tip of the rod move or line jump. Or how many times they’ve said to me afterwards “I never even felt him bite”
Because they were not focused and did not feel what was a light bite, but still enough for me to see it.
None of us is able to maintain concentration for 6 to 8 hours at a time, and it’s in those moments of spacing out that I want to feel every thing I possibly can get out of a rod

Now this may not be true in all types of fishing, but bass a notorious for biting lightly at times.
During a tournament few years back I caught 4 limits of fish as the none boater when the man in the front never had a bite, using the exact same baits fishing grass beds in a night tournament. The only difference; Quality of equipment! I could feel them and he could not.

I do my best to have the rods I build feel like its been hit by a baseball bat, even when it’s a light bite



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 12:20PM by Steve Gardner.

Regardless of sensitivity I'll forgo a fish or two if I can comfortably carry my walleye rod in my pickup as I do my fly rods. That is my numbeer one priority.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

The only two piece bass rods I see are the ones that the Bubba brings back through the door with a frown on his face!

Mark,

My comment was not intended to give the impresssion that either a one or 2 pc rod is better than the other. I don't know or care! MY catch rate varies from trip to trip regardless which I'm using. My mention of Fact was referring to just how little facts mean in the real world. Why does St. Croix have a few hundred models or Mustad a hundred or so hook styles? Why does every season have a new hot lure or color (even before fishing season starts)? My OPINION is that marketing and/or cofidence level will win out over "facts" most times.

That being said, You might want to give people's "opinions" the same respect that you want given to yours. You are saying that the thread should stop because it isn't based on "facts" If that were the case, very few threads on this forum would exist. When I post, I'm looking for opinions from others. Are you suggesting that people should NOT give their opinion of a particular finish, blank, etc., unless they can back it up with fact??

I just haven't seen "higher than thou" tone to any of the posts

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

To compare a 1-piece and 2-piece rods on even grounds, you have to be comparing the exact same rod model, and very often, such models are not available in both designs.

I built many, many popping rods for saltwater trout fishing over the years. G. Loomis used to offer their 2 most popular models, the P842 and P844, in both 1 and 2-piece models. And... most importantly, they were designed around exactly the same parameters in terms of power and action. So you could make an apples to apples comparison. The only difference was the number of pieces. I also tried the "blindfold" test on customers who were leery of the 2-piece versions. But, I never had a single customer that could pick out the 2-piece model 4 out of 5 tries (you've always got a 50% chance of getting it right with just one guess). In the end, most ended up going with the 2-piece model once they realize that it didn't feel different enough, or lose sensitivity to the point that they could actually tell a tangible difference.

Having said that, I have no fear of 2-piece rods nor do I feel I'm giving up anything by using them. I use them when I need the portability advantage. If I don't need something that breaks down into smaller sections for travel, I just build and use 1-piece models - they cost less and you never have to check a ferrule connection. But I've never found one to have a performance advantage over the other in any category.

As far as customers go - I told them what I knew to be true, and let them try the different models for themselves. If they still weren't sure about using the 2-piece models, I didn't force them. I ended up building whatever they wanted. But I did attempt to at least shine some light and offer some insight so that they might at least make an educated decision on which way to go. Many completely changed their minds concerning 2-piece rods. A few understood that they may have been mistaken as the difference between the two models, but still couldn't shake their lack of confidence in the 2-piece model and asked for the 1-piece. Knowing that having confidence in your equipment is directly tied to your fishing success, I was happy to oblige, either way.

..................



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 01:37PM by Tom Kirkman.

I just knew someone would rip their panties


Mike and all.

Re-read the very first two post on this thread. Then re-read my previous post.
There you will see the "inferences" of the "higher than thou part".

Anyone transposing opinions into facts, I have little respect for the fact rational part. But I do respect your opinion, just don't imply its fact. Or, at least say its fact in your mind!

Now Mike, even in your previous post, "something mundane as facts". All I'm asking is show this to me, tell me where can I find the facts!!!!! I already know your opinion, and I respect it greatly.
I so want to be proven wrong. I want the ease and simplicity of a two piece without giving up the feel. Until my hand proves my brain wrong, for me its a one piece. If there is any "fact" data out their to prove my hand wrong I will make every effort to re-train my brain.
But everyone is throwing "fact" around like it's undisputed.

~Mark

And don't anyone miss-interpret this post: I fully support this forum, RM magazine, the Expo, and Kirkman.
Oh, and Mike, I like you to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 01:45PM by Mark J. Mire.