I am still having trouble with wavy epoxy over my decal area. The area is 4 inches long. I have tried everything that I have read here and learned from Ralph at the show in Feb. No matter what I try I am still getting waves in the finish???

I tried super thin application of epoxy believing I was using too much, I apply it lengthwise and let it sit till it sags, then swipe the sags off and let it sit for a few to re-cover the area i just swiped. I then rotate it 180 and wait to see any more sags and if so swipe again.. I do this for roughly 40 minutes then set to rotate.

I do find myself messing around with the epoxy quite a bit (pretty much the whole time i am hand rotating) trying to fill low spots and remove bubbles that are ALWAYS there. Even with the TM i get bubbles that wont go away (blowing on them, and heat gun on them). This area has a 1/4" wrap on both ends of the 4" area and bare matte finish blank in the middle for the logo. I even get bubbles in the middle with no threads.

I mix my epoxy slowly so i dont have too many bubbles if any before dumping it onto a paper plate covered in tinfoil. I apply with a brush and I know most will tell me to use a spatule, but my guide wraps are so small (bass rods) that the spatula overlaps the wraps and doesnt work there at all. I guess I could try it on the loga area for bubbles, but dont know if that will help the waves??

I have tried switching from FC lite to TM lite with same results. And aftcote and diamondite II...

All of my guides finish perfectly with no football or any other odd shapes. Its just this long area???

Any helpful hints tips or anything that anyone can think of to help is greatly appreciated.

-Mike

Let it set for a couple more days. Then take a dull razor blad, hold it at 90% to the rod. Now lightly scrap the finish. Starting at the low spots and fill in the low spots with new finish and level it off. Do this while the rod is turning. Now look at the under side you can see where it is low or high and wick it off where it is high and fill in the low areas.
Good Wraps Bob

"I apply it lengthwise and let it sit till it sags"

Why would you do that? I don't understand the idea of letting it sag (letting a problem get started) and then removing the sags. I know some do it and say it works well for them, but it's not the way I go about it presonally. If you let it sit until it sags, well... that's what you're going to get - sags. I'd rather not have those to begin with.

Load your brush and lower it to the rod at one end. Rotate the rod under it, once, perhaps two revolutions. Now load the brush again and do the same thing at the other end. Now do it again, perhaps once in the middle of that area. Now take your brush and working from the end to the middle, draw the finish out until it covers that area. Work from end, then the other. Don't over do this - just get the area completely covered.

Do not wait for sags to form, which they will regardless of how much you put on, but rotate the rod 180 degrees just as soon as you see the finish start to get heavy on the bottom side. At first you'll have to turn the rod every minute or so, then it'll take about 5 minutes in-between turns and eventually, 10, 15, etc. After a couple hours it won't need to be turned anymore. Just watch it and turn it as it starts to get heavy on one side.

Or.... you can go back to the second paragraph and once you've done that you can pop it in your dryer/rotator. I like to hand rotate so I can use gravity to manipulate the finish to my liking, but after some period it really doesn't matter either way.

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Michael, what is it that you mean by "wavy"? I guess I am asking what proeprties make its wavyness.. Is it rough and not smoorth, not round, not clear???? I am trying to picture your dilemna and just not understanding

I also think what caused his problem is that he does not put enough finish on the wrap. I may be wrong but that why I do mine while my rod is turning, I also look at the bottom of the wrap, by doing this you can see the waves and fill in the low spots by by dragging the high spots in to tyhe low. Once this is done I apply a medium coat of finish any excess well sag and I remove that excess.
Good Wraps Bob. I also add heat at this point and any excess well start to sag. I wick this off right away. Just a thought how long is the wrap, what size thread and was CP used. Tom am I wrong by using this method
Good Wraps Bob

Tom, I have the rodmaker issue that shows how to properly apply epoxy. I must have mistook "as soon as you see the finish start to get heavy on the bottom side" as, wait till you see the epoxy sagging and wick away the exess? What do you mean by "heavy"?

It seems if there is any saging or heavy part that the epoxy is flowing. If it is flowing it has to stop at some point and when it does you'll see the waves?? Maybe I am overthinking this? I will try your three stripe method and pull into the middle. But i guess I wont let it sag, just wait till it looks like its getting ready to and then turn it 180?

Terry, The epoxy is clear with lumps throughout the area not rough, kinda like rollors on a body of water as opposed to wind chop. Thats what I mean by wavy.

Bob, the wrap's are approx 1/4" then 3 1/2 bare blank then another 1/4" wrap, NCP size A thread and no CP.

Keep any suggestions coming. I just want a perfectly level finish, i'll work on bubble after that.

Thanks again,

-Mike

I didn't read the Rodmaker article like that. It didn't say anything about letting the epoxy sag and then removing anything, it was just a photo showing what happens when you apply too much at one time! At least that's how I read it.

I still believe that if you apply the finish while it is turning all at once instead in segments you would be better off. You would beable to see sagging to start. Are you saying you have open wraps? if so this is where your waves are coming from, What happens is that the finish is slidding off and building up on the weave. But with the info you have recieved from Tom and others you should have been able to correct this problem.
Good Wraps Bob

I've never advocated "wicking" anything away. I have said that if you apply too much, you need to remove some of it. But I prefer to apply the correct amount to begin with. You get a feel for that as you build more and more rods.

If you watch the finish carefully, you can see when it's starting to get thicker or heavier on the bottom than the top. At that point, it's time to flip the rod 180 degrees. Working this way you can manipulate the finish as you like it. This is one of those things that is easier shown than told, but this will have to do for now.

Here's an inscription area that is exactly 4 inches long. It's pretty flat. I have another that is about 8 inches long but don't have time to take a photo at the moment. I'll try tomorrow.

[www.rodbuilding.org]


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Michael, I am going with Bob on this one that maybe it is not enough in terms volume. I'd hate to see you botch up a rod so take what I have to say as onlt .02 worth, but I am one to liberally put on the epoxy over the decal. In fact when I take the spatula or brush I can "roll" the epoxy in the direction I "aim" so to speak and it'll (the epoxy) drop (fall) off the bottom as I move it back and forth..

I should also note that I dry my rods in a coffin style box with heat lamps inside so it'll (the epoxy) level as it dries. Do you potentially have a temperature issue in the sense that it is setting up too quickly?

Waves, bubbles, nubs, specks, hills and dales and everything else in the world. Michael there are humpteen things that can cause finish irregurarities. If help can be directed at the correct problem you note it would be easier to troubleshoot your exact problems. Is there any way you can post a close up picture of what you are calling wavey epoxy and bubbles over decals maybe someone can give a better answer.

I too like perfect finish and many problems have nothing to do with the finish or application techniqes. I had airborne contamination in my shop. I found it by placing a flow ceramic white dish full of water in my drying area and left it overnight with no one in the shop. I could not believe what I found in the dish after eight hours. I cleaned up the entire area and my "finish tiny bubbles" magically dissapeared. The one thing that comes to mind when I read your posts is that edge sealing with Micro Sol can unsure the outer edge of the decal is sealed to the blank which does not allow the edge to dimple which causes slight high spot and can cause the wave to build that you mention.

Take a picture and post it if you can

Gon Fishn

Mike,
I have had the same (or what sounds similar) problem over decals. The finish kind of wrinkles ending up as "orange peel" over the decal. Everywhere else it is perfect. Must be something on the decal or the ink may be causing it to get uneven but only over the decal. Thus far I have been able to carefully sand it down and recoat with very good results. Sanded a little too far once and had to put a new decal on it and the same thing happened...wrinkles. Maybe I should coat the decal with color preserver or clear coat. I'll try it on the next one and see how it goes. Kip

Kip,

By all means put CP or clear acrylic over the decal. What's happening in your case is that the slick, smooth surface of the decal is repelling the finish, resulting in that bad orange peel or pock-marked appearance.

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I would really think about your application with the brush and how you are doing it. I use a brush but I use it more as a scoop than a brush. I probably push it around more than actually brush it on, at least on the longer areas like butt wraps. The more you play with it trying to smooth it out by brushing the more problems you are going to make for yourself. I pretty much just glob it on there and push it around with the brush and let it level itself out. It works for me.

Terry made a good point on the heat/temperature thing. My work area is typically pretty cool and if I am going to be applying epoxy I put a small heater down there to warm it up. If I don't heat things up, I wind up with a pile of problems with bubbles, waves, valleys and a lot of futzing.

I made a few changes to what I was using figuring it was the epoxy, lo and behold I found the problems were me. I say pick one and learn it's quirks on how it works and stick with it.

Scott.
I use a spatula to apply finish and don't have any problem except directly over the decal. I agree with Tom that something about the decal is causing the finish to wrinkle directly over the decal. I am going to spray the decal with a clear acrylic next time and see if that makes a difference. Thanks for your help. Kip

Mike

Your post could have been written by me word for word! After the High Point show I was so frustrated I undertook my own research program to see why I could not replicate the glowing reports about "leveling" that I had been told in talking with experts and that had been posted on this board for at least 5 years. After a dozen or so futile attempts at systematically trying the "recommended" approaches, I started taking detailed notes (after all, I am a research engineer and should have thought of that earlier) and trying the various suggestions. I am currently at application #40 and only gotten about 3 "perfect" applications of Flex Coat Lite. I am finally starting to see some progress, and have discovered that there is a lot of "technique" that can't be covered in a short post.


Since I deeply share your frustration I will be happy to fill you in on what works for me. Send me your email at gguinn@knology.net.

Finishing Challenged

I just thought of one point that has not been touched on weavy finishes. Was the treads pack tight, rolled or burnished. Loose threads well raise and if they were not burnished or rolled you can get a wavy look.
Just a thought.
Good Wraps Bob

If you play with it for 40 min your bound to have problems, that just nuts. It will be thick and have set some what by that time! You want to fool with it while its still flowing and leveling well. Get the excess off right away dont sit there waiting for it to thicken on you.

You should put it on make sure its not on to thick and its level throughout the length of the area. Then get it spinning, the stuff will just level on its own. Now you can apply your heat AFTER its spinning .Do not apply to much heat when your finish is over a slick surface (like a lable area) it can casue the finish to start to "bead" like a freshly waxed car, just a little heat for this.

It almost sounds like your trying to get it done in one coat? This would be another mistake. put it on thinner and get it done in two or three coats.

The first coat may have a few holes or dust bumps those can be filled later and what sticks up can be cut off with a razor.

The second coat will fix all the little things described above.

if you need a thrid coat its to for the same reasons but way less of them.

Think of it like painting a wall just get it on even and dont apply to much in any one area and it will just be fine.

I know it's not feasible for most folks, but anyone who ever wants to come by my shop and see this done in person, I'm happy to oblige. I've had quite a few rod builders come out and watch me do it, but most are very disappointed because they thought there were going to see me do something special, some sort of secret trick - but I do almost nothing. I put it on and let it go to work. And it levels perfectly.

Most of the time, when I watch them do the same thing, I find something in their technique, some little thing, that is actually keeping the epoxy from doing what it wants to do. When I ask them why they do that particular thing, they usually say that they heard or read somewhere that someone else does it.

The fact is, all epoxies level perfectly - they can't do otherwise. It would be like pouring water out onto a surface and having it pile up higher in some places than others. That's not going to happen.

These things are just hard to take care of in the written word. Michael, I don't know how far away you are there in Virginia, but if you ever get down this way I promise you that we can fix any finishing problems you're having in 5 minutes. Bring a rod with you and we'll do it here.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2008 08:45AM by Tom Kirkman.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

I usually apply one thin coat then apply the waterslide decal then a second thin coat. But both coats end up wavy.

Bob, the thread area is a small part of the area im finishing. The waves occur in between the wraps. But the wraps are burnished and packed tight.

Tom, the finish in the picture you attached is PERFECT. God, I wish I could get mine even close to that. It's weird because my guide wraps end up beautiful, its just this longer area...

I have also recently started getting that pock marked look over the decal, the finish seems to slide off of the waterslide decal. I should try to put some cp over the decals and hope that helps and doesnt cause more problems.

I build inside my house and the temp is usually between 68 and 70. Actually now that i think about it, I usually epoxy at night then set it spinning while i sleep. But my wife and I usually turn down the heat because it gets hotter upstairs in the bedroom than in the middle level where we watch tv (and build rods). I wonder if the cooler temps while we are sleeping have something to do with it?

Im wrapping a rod now and will be epoxying maybe tomorrow. Im gonna try some of the suggestions here and see what happens. I'll let you guys know what I tried and how it came out.

Thank you guys very much for all the help.

-Mike