Andy;

I'm a newbie. I bought some of your mandrils before and I love them and I just received some of your TM Light based on the recommendations I read on other posts on several websites. This thread author asked about the time it takes TM Lite to harden but I didn't see an answer. I to am interested in this because I was hoping to finish a couple of rods this weekend to use next week on the Susquehanna Flats for large stripers on light tackle and I need the wraps to be fully cured and hard if I want to use these rods. If they won't be cured I'll plan on using other rods and put these up until they are ready. So can you please tell me how long it should take to fully cure at a temp 68-70 degrees.

Thanks much
Rick

Just to clarify - I am having trouble with TM Lite.

Does that mean I am bashing the product and assuming that it is the manufacturer's problem? Of course not! I do feel that it is a little bit arrogant and closed-minded to assume that there is no chance a product can be bad though. Things happen...
The last thing I was trying to do was bash or put down the product. I love the stuff and hope I can figure out how to fix my problem.

I simply posted up hoping to get some ideas of exactly what is going wrong. I have finished 8-10 rods with TM Lite and have had zero issues with it until this last one I have finished (or attempted to). It will fish-eye, then they disappear, and then it wont cure 100% (after weeks in 78-80* air temps. I even tried setting it in the sun and that just made it softer.

The finish is clear and slick as always, but wont harden. The fisheyes after application, that disappear during drying, are what concern me. They did not occur on the 1st and 2nd coats (which hardened just fine), so I don't think it had anything to do with the thread, blank, or decals. BUT, the 3-5th coats have been full of them. AT THE SAME TIME AND PLACE, I have finished another rod with TM High Build and had absolutely zero problems. Cures perfect, no fisheyes, etc...

So, is something on my 'trouble blank'? I have sanded it down twice now and re-finished. Each time after sanding I thoroughly cleaned with iso alcohol, let it sit for a bit, and re-finished. What can I do now?

Is there a chance that something got inside my TMLite bottles? They are always capped before I even mix the finish...doubt that.

The only thing I can think is that something got onto the blank. I would assume that sanding and cleaning would remove it, but maybe I am just embedding it more? Any pointers on how to clean it off right?

I have done a good bit of paint/body work and know a thing or two about contaminants and the problems they cause, especially anything with silicon. I may not have the cleanest 'shop' around, but I do make sure nothing is sprayed/used that will cause issues.

So, in short - I'm not blaming the product. I didn't post up bashing the product. I posted up looking for help. So, help me be perfect since we already know TM Lite is perfect.

SQ

Shawn Queeney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Is there a chance that something got inside my
> TMLite bottles? They are always capped before I
> even mix the finish...doubt that.
>
> The only thing I can think is that something got
> onto the blank. I would assume that sanding and
> cleaning would remove it, but maybe I am just
> embedding it more? Any pointers on how to clean it
> off right?
>

> SQ

Shawn, have you tried using TM Lite from those same two bottles on a different blank or scrap section? That would give you a direction to pursue - if it fisheyes on the new blank I would say that somehow your bottles got contaminated. If it doesn't there is something on the bad rod.

Another gremlin is airborne contamination. Has anything changed in the shop/house? Spray any polish (Pledge) in the recent past? One thing I have learned in 30 years of electronics troubleshooting is this: There is no magic! There is always a reason for everything. We just need to figure out what it is in your case.

Chuck

Update: FYI I have used Isopropyl on a paper towel to clean many, many blanks (required in my dry transfers) and I have never had a fisheye. It might be possible that you have a bad bottle of Iso.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2008 12:40PM by Chuck Mills.

Chuck,

I am planning to apply finish on a scrap blank later, we'll see how it does. I am pretty sure i put finish on one other rod AFTER the 'problem' rod, and it came out just fine.

Nothing has changed in the house.

For the record - when I mentioned the bottle was contaminated, I didn't mean to imply that it came that way from the factory. If it is indeed, it was ruined at my house. It was fine for the first 3/4 of the bottle....

SQ

Shawn - I understood it that way when you asked - "Is there a chance that something got inside my TMLite bottles?"

I always use syringes and I leave them in the bottle (5/32" hole punched in top). When I pull a syringe to warm the resin (MN winter) I lay it on a fresh piece of aluminum foil. Knock on wood, no problems yet.

It wouldn't take much to contaminate a bottle. But, if you get good results on a different blank it has to be your cleaning procedure or something embedded in that blank.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

Chuck,

I was talking about this with Jeff Shields who has great luck with TM Lite. I mentioned that I usually use the 'dull side' of the foil to apply finish. When this started, I accidentally used the shiny side...

I wonder if there is something on that foil, shiny side, that will cause trouble?

Ever since I have not been using foil to lay out the finish (and I've been fighting bubbles, especially with the high build).

I will try tonight to see what happens. May take a day to cure and decide whether or not it is turning out OK...but I'll know right away regarding the fisheyes.

Thanks for the input.

SQ

I quit using the shiny side only because I have so many lights in the shop I blind myself trying to apply finish!

Chuck Mills Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I quit using the shiny side only because I have so
> many lights in the shop I blind myself trying to
> apply finish!



That is the reason why I normally use the dull side. This one time I used the shiny side and all @#$%& broke loose...doh!

SQ

Hi Shawn,
It's not arrogant at all for to say that it's impossible for YOUR batch of TM Lite to be contaminated from the factory....it's simple math. I manufacture those kits in lots of several thousand at a time. So if you'rs was bad, I'd be inundated with emails from other folks around the globe claiming the same thing, and it's simply not happening. Additionally, I should also add that when every lot is manufactured I personally mix up a batch from one Lite Kit, and one High Build Kit to make sure there are no issues.
I understand your frustrated, and I certainly wont take offense to your comments. However, if you were having problems with the product. the apropriate thing to do would be to first contact the person who formulated it and knows the ins and outs of what causes these sorts of problems, and how to fix them....which would be me. I would have been more than happy to help get your problem solved quickly and cleanly, however to date I have recieved no emails or phone calls at all from you. And since your email is hidden, I have no way of getting in touch with you directly (which I tried).
I have had several folks in the past claim they recieved a bad batch, but upon further evaluation it was always some sort of self inflicted environmental issue. Example: You wrap rods on a kitchen table that was cleaned w/Pledge Furniture polish....that's a problem. Your wife decides to switch to a new perfume and spray it adjacent to your rodbuilding room....that's a potential problem. If some sort of rank odor infiltrates your house, and your wife douses everything with Lysol or Febreeze.....that's a problem. You guys may laugh but these are ALL real world problems that I have diagnosed as causing issues with rodbuilding epoxy.

It's safe to say that this board is a good source of information, but not nearly as good as the manufacture themselves. Next time, just email me directly, and I can almost guarantee within the course of 2 emails or 1 phone call you're problem will be solved. I always try to answer all emails within 2 hours of recieving them.
In fact, if I remember correctly you live in South Texas....I'd even be willing to come to your shop for on-site help, and bring you a free 8oz. kit to run some tests against. Heck, I'll even buy you lunch.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2008 02:27PM by Andy Dear.

Andy Dear Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shawn,
> It's not arrogant at all for to
> say that it's impossible for YOUR batch of TM Lite
> to be contaminated from the factory....it's simple
> math. I manufacture those kits in lots of several
> thousand. So if you'rs was bad, I'd be inundated
> with emails from other folks around the globe
> claiming the same thing, and it's simply not
> happening. I understand your frustrated, and I
> certainly wont take offense to your comment.
> However, if you were having problems with the
> product. the apropriate thing to do would be to
> first contact the person who formulated it and
> knows the ins and outs of what causes these sorts
> of problems, and how to fix them....which would be
> me. I would have been more than happy to help get
> your problem solved quickly and cleanly, however
> to date I have recieved no emails or phone calls
> at all from you. And since your email is hidden, I
> have no way of getting in touch with you directly
> (which I tried).
>
> It's safe to say that this board is a good source
> of information, but not nearly as good as the
> manufacture themselves. Next time, just email me
> directly, and I can almost guarantee within the
> course of 2 emails or 1 phone call you're problem
> will be solved.
> In fact, if I remember correctly you live in South
> Texas....I'd even be willing to come to your shop
> for on-site help, and bring you a free 4oz. kit to
> run some tests against.
>
>
> Andy Dear
> Lamar Fishing


WOW, you can't beat that!!!! The manufacturer want's to come and give you advice 1 on 1!!!
I wonder if I complain about my weaving looms, will DOC Ski come over to my place and give me lessons 1 on 1!!!! LOL :>)

Regards
Dave

Fishing is Life the rest is just Details

"Each time after sanding I thoroughly cleaned with iso alcohol, let it sit for a bit, and re-finished. What can I do now? "

Don't wipe it down with iso alcohol. I had this problem with another epoxy finish and it was my alcohol that cause me the problem. Not all iso are the same, some a poor solvent. Try soap and water and dry well.

IT'S NOT THE FINISH!

...for the first time ever with any finish, I have been experiencing what I thought were difficulties with TM and TM-Lite. I've been using it successfully since it's inception, always very pleased with the results. But this time around, while trying to finish off a long holo butt wrap, I've experienced a hair-pulling cycle of multiple fisheyes. Knowing that I'm doing the same finish proceedure I've done for years, I initially blamed the finish. After some logical thinking though, I've come to realize that it is MY fault, guilty as charged, user-error all along. A simple switch to 3ml pharmacy-stock oral/topical syringes created the problem - silicon used in the syringes was the culprit. Changing to these syringes reminded me of pulling a pebble out of the dam and watching the whole thing collapse. Without attention to detail, it's easy to alter a good system!

My lesson learned was to stick with supplies INTENDED for rodbuilding, and life will be just fine...Thanks Andy, TM and TM-Lite rule again!

Andy,

Here's my email: S_Queeney@hotmail.com

What do you recommend as a pre-cleaner?

I did not blame the product, if you will re-read my comments. The product worked 100% perfect when I first got it - and only after using 3/4+ of the bottle(s), have I had issues. I was simply trying to find what is wrong with my application of the product.

I find it hard to believe that a simple airborn contaminant will cause the TM Lite to be ruined while the TM Regular will work just fine. BUT, I am not a professional, chemist, or whatever else it takes to do what you do. I just brush the stuff onto a rod, and until this point, have come out with great results. For all I know, the TM Regular is experiencing the same problem but is just more resistant to it.

I appreciate your offer and expect nothing less from you based on my past experience with you. I was not to the point where I was ready to contact the manufacturer because I figured it was something I was doing wrong, not you or your product - hence the reasoning for replying to a thread someone else started saying I am having a similar problem (and hoping their solution would apply to me).

Your product sells itself, you know that.

I am going to try applying it to a different rod and see what happens. If that doesn't work, I may have to take you up on the 1on1 lessons. However, my methods worked fine for a few months and I can't see anything that has changed that would cause this.

Gary,

The alcohol worked fine on the other 10 rods...but I will keep that in mind.

Thanks,
SQ

Shawn,

The thing about cleaning with alcohol may well be your problem. You should never wipe anything with a solvent as the last step in your surface preparation. The proper sequence is:

1. Clean

2. Sand/scour

3. Apply finish/adhesive

I can't say that this is your problem for certain - but it is one thing that has been known to cause symptoms similar to, if not exact, to what you're experiencing.


..................

I guess the main thing to mention here is that I never touched any alcohol to the finish until I had already sanded it down due to the first round of fisheyes/finish issues.

In other words, I had fisheyes/finish not curing BEFORE wiping it down - so I sanded it to scuff the top and then wiped the residue with iso alcohol to clean it

From what you are saying though, you will just leave the sanding/scouring residue on the blank and then put finish over the top of it?

No, No, No, Shawn that's not what he's saying. He's saying to wipe the residue off just don't use alcohol. Use a dry coffee filter or something dry that won't leave any lint. Or even use a fine soft wide artist's bruh to brush it off. Now, you know I don't mean you any disrespect, just trying to help you to understand how folks on this forum assume that you have at least read some rodbuilding books or watched some video's, when you may not have. Understand?? It's not only you but some of the other newbies as well. You have to use some common sense with the advice you're getting. Again, not flaming or disrespecting you, just trying to play devil's advocate, and promote / impart some understanding.

Bill in WV

Bill,

I do have some experience - and I'm trying to actually go backwards and act like a newbie so that I don't overlook or assume steps. From what his list showed, he went from sanding straight to finishing (which, as someone with expereince, I know is not correct but I figured I'd ask).

I have read a few books, watched 3 DVD's, and read countless forum posts....

Thanks for the info though. It is humbling to have several rods turn out near perfect and then you do the same thing on one and it all goes down the drain. From my searching/reading, it happens to the best of you(us) as well.

SQ

The problem with cleaning first, then scuffing a guide wrap is that you'll end up with tiny pieces of "sanding dust" that will settle in the grooves you've created via the sanding. This dust will reveal itself when you put the next coat of finish on, and it will look TERRIBLE. So follow Tom's advice, and DO not use a solvent in the last step, but be sure to wipe the dust off with something. The best bet is to scuff lightly, then wipe ALL of the sanding dust off so it doesn't show during the next coat with a dry paper towel. If necessary you can wipe with a paper towel dampened with water.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing

I had to sand an excessive amount of finish off due to the deep fisheyes on the rod - so it was more then just a scuff. I had a lot of residue and used alcohol to clean it. But the fisheyes formed before the rod had ever been wiped down with alcohol.

I will make sure not to use alcohol anymore.

I appreciate the replies.

Alcohol isn't by any means pure and may leave a contaminating residue when the alcohol evaporates leaving the infamous "inert ingredieants" behind

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!