I am going to build a TFO TICR saltwater fly rod 9 wt 9'. The reel used is a Reddington Breakwater spool diameter 3.75" spool.
I am going to use ATC Titan Titanium guides. What quantity and sizes would you suggest for this rod? Thank you for your input.

GUIDE QTY or this GUIDE QTY
NIV-20 1 NIV-16 1
NIV-16 1 NIV-10 1
NIV-10 1 NIV-8 1
NIF-10 1 NIF-8 6
NIF-8 5 TFST-8 FUJI tip top
TFST-8 FUJI tip top

Dennis Scott
dmsc0tt@charter.net

Dennis,
Using the formula of the length of the rod plus one you would end up with ten guides. I would go with a size 16 stripper and then a 10 and then 8's out to the end. If you don't have any large knots you might try size 7 running guides and a 7 top but what you have listed is reasonable. Some builders might like the size 20 stripper but I usually opt for smaller rather than larger. If you can, buy a couple of extra running guides and then do your static placement test, you should end up with good results.
Lynn

lynn,

would you use NIV or NIF in size 10?

Dennis Scott
dmsc0tt@charter.net

Lynn,
This is my experience...

I have 5 rods between 8 and 12 wt I have built up and fished a lot. On all but one, I used two double foot strippers, a 16 and a 12, followed by one single foot 10, and the rest 8's out to the end. One has a 20 and a 16 double foot, a 12 single foot and 8's out to the end. I will not put a size 20 stripper on a fly rod again.

I've never had a wind knot or tangle of fly line try to go out the guides while I have a fish on, but I have problems with that one rod getting it in a tube, getting hung up on stuff in boats, and being a real pain. Its just big enough that it gets in the way, and someday, it will get caught on somethuing and the blank will have to break. When I take that rod on trips, it complicates the number of rods I can effectively put in a travel tube becasue of that honkin' big stripper guide.

I'm not the biggest authority, but I cant find any real reason from my own experience to support the big stripper guide mentality on saltwater rods, other than the fear of contradicting a (true) master. In a side by side comparison, my TiCrx 10 wt built up myself casts a few feet farther than my friend's factory built TiCrx 10 wt. with the bigger guide set on it.

This is not my wisdom. Actually, I went with the prevailing opinion I gleaned from this forum, with the exception of that one rod with the 20 stripper on it. Consider using no more than two double foot guides, step down quickly with just one intermediate sized single foot, to 8's or even 7's out to the tip top. See what others here have to say too.

Dennis,
I would use the NIF or the regular type fly guide for the 10. The NIV is a high frame casting guide and I don't think you need more than one stripper type guide. I like using single foot spin guides for the stripper though. I guess I just like the whole concept of the single foot guide, smaller footprint and less wraps.
Anyway, it sounds like your on the right track!.
Tight Wraps!
Lynn

James,
I agree on not using size 20 strippers on a fly rod. I also wouldn't use two casting style guides on a fly rod eventhough I don't think someone is wrong to do so. I think less is usually better with regards to guide selection, but too small or too light is just that.
Lynn

Dennis,

This question or similar ones come up on this forum quite often. All of our research has pointed to the direction of using a size 20 high frame stripper guide on saltwater fly rods when reels of less than 4 inches are used. One aspect that is forgotten when designing a saltwater fly rod is the fish fighting. The higher framed stripper guide decreases the angle formed by the fly line and reel going to the first guide. Any decrease in this angle will also decrease friction at the first guide. Your choice of guides you have selected for this particular blank is correct. The only modification I would suggest is that you use a NIV size 12 as the second guide instead of the size 16.
Michael A Taylor
Bluewater Fly Tackle

Michael,
If you suggest size 20 high frame guides for a reel less than 4" in diameter then what would you use for a reel larger than 4"? From my point of view the greatest advantage of using a high frame guide would be casting and not fish fighting. While I can see the reduction of friction while casting, as the fly line has a straighter path off of the reel, the friction on the guides while fighting fish would be the same all along the rod because the fly line is being pulled taut against the guides. I guess I just can't figure out how you would be able to quantify those results or how you could even test for friction.
Since you said that you did research on the use of size 20 strippers over size 16, what advantages did you find in your research that led you to this conclusion? I guess I am looking for something like a scientific explanation or a way that I could better understand your point of view and maybe be able to test your theory without being subjective.
Thanks!
Lynn Leary

Lynn,

I have answered this question before. If you are going to use a reel over 4 inches in diameter you will need to increase the size of the first stripper to a size 25 high frame. If your reel is over 5 inches in diameter a size 30 is not out of the question.
One thing you have to remember fighting a fish on a flats skiff in 6 foot of water and fighting a fish in 1000 foot of water demand different fish fighting styles. When fishing on a flat in shallow water if a fish runs away from you a 100 yards the angle of the rod position if held correctly is almost horizontal to the water's surface. Providing you with gradual distribution of load from the tip to the butt. On the other hand fishing offshore or near shore some species of fish will run down below your feet a 100yds, thus placing an unequal distribution of the load directly on the butt section of the rod. The first two or three stripper guides are bearing the brunt of this load. The first stripper guide is also absorbing most of the heat generated by the fly line and backing as they press against the ring material of the first stripper. Any decrease in the line angle from the bottom of the reel to the first ring will reduce friction because you are pulling the line in straighter path. That doesn't take rocket science to figure that out, just a little common sense reasoning.
You asked about research. My partner and I have 1000's of days on the water as guides and as fisherman. Those days have provided us with a tremendous amount of observational experience. We also study and take photographs and videos of rods in use on the water. This photographic evidence coupled with over 60 years of rod building experience helps us determine how we build our rods. As professional rod builders we have never sold a rod to the public that was not prototyped and thoroughly tested before we offered them for sell.
If you attended the rod Expo you could have stopped by our booth and tested some of our fly rods for yourself. Or you could have attended the seminar we presented on big game fly rod construction. Either way it was an eye opening experience for those individuals that did do so. It showed just how far we have managed to step outside the box of conventional fly rod construction.

Michael A Taylor
Bluewater Fly Tackle

Michael,
Thanks! I think you told me more about open water fly rods than I have ever considered before. When Dennis said that he was building a 9 weigtht fly rod to use in salt water, I really didn't even consider that weight rod for fishing in 1000 feet of water. I still think that a salmon/steelhead weight rod could still work well with a size 16 stripper, but I'm aslo sure that a 20 would work too. You've got me thinking about your open water style fly rods though. It sure sounds a lot different than building a 1-wt. I'll take you up on that invitation to see your rods and seminar in 2009 if everything works out.
Thanks!
Lynn