I had tested some very small guides before but then traded them away before I can do more test.

Casting distance with spinning reel is very important to me. This question is for those of you who have compared casting distance between normal sized guides and these teeeny weeeeny guides (size 3 and below).

A few thoughts below:

1. When I tested the small guides, I could distinctly feel and hear the line loops flowing as the guides choked the line down and forced them to be straighter. I did not think much of that at that time. I'm now wondering if that reduces casting distance. What I mean is that with spin reels and stiffer lines such as fluorocarbon, the line comes of in coils and it takes energy to straighten the coil. With UL and UL lures (i.e. 1/16 and 1/32 ounces), any bit of energy required to straighten the line can significantly reduce casting distance - my conjecture anyways.

2. Smaller spin reels actually cause tighter coils. I'm wondering if anyone tested whether these micro guides reduced casting distance with small reels and stiffer lines. How about larger reels?

3. I used a size 500 Daiwa spin for some casting and remember feeling the coils distinctly on the near micro guides, but not on another rod with larger guides. Line flow was smoother through larger guides through the coils.

Curious what you guys think. I assume with heavier lures such as 3/8th oz kastmaster or such - this issue is less important. But with UL lures, this may be a significant issue in casting distance?

Wondering if anyone has actual data beyond theorizing. THANKS! You guys are tops.

By the way, some have noted that weight reduction can help cast further. Using recoils, I could have a much larger guide, but at the same weight as the smaller guides so I took weight out of the equation.

Thanks,
Mo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2008 02:29AM by Mo Yang.

I have been having this same discussion with my buddy. I taught him to build rods and we tapered the guides from a 30 to an 8. he says that his loomis can cast farther because it has smaller guides (25,20, 16, 14, 6, 6, 6). I told him that maybe more accurately possibly but with an equally matched blank, and reel the bigger guides (to an extent) will make it cast further.

the choking of the line has to be disspensed over all the guides, so a small amount of friction is applied to them instead of alot of friction at the striper or more concentrated near the tip and smaller guides if that makes sense.

I like baitcasters and currenty have use Curado 200,s . I really do think smaller guides constricts and slows down the line. Most baitcasting rods have many smaller guides, I started building spirals with bigger guides (12 - 8) and they cast a lot better..easier. Baitcasters back lash becuase the line is freespooling and the line can not feed out through the guides fast enough. With the line feeding easier and not slowing down so much from friction casting becomes much more effortless..... I do not even use the plastic brakes on most of my reels. I run ABEC 7 ceramic bearings and may have 2 plastic brake collars kicked out. My wife can now cast as far as most men with much less effort.

Hey Mo! I HAD a 6' ultra-lite with those tiny gudies, and casting was terrible. Eveyrthing you are guessing is right on. For guys throwing a 1/2 oz. spinner bait there may not be much difference, but trying to cast super lite baits is a whole different game. I would not buld any UL spinner with less than size 6's. Those tiny guides may have a place on bass rods, but no way on lite spinning.

Marc

just a thought and with no data yet. what about once you choke it down to size 6 for a guide or 2 then take it down to smaller sized guides? has anyone tried this? don't know if it will work ,but i think i will try it when i get a chance

MO;
You bring up some interesting points. I don't cast any thing smaller then 1/8 oz. But much of what I cast is that. Have been using the Micro guides for going on two years now. Flat out- the Micro guides out cast standard guides in the applications I’ve used them on
When building a spinning rod I start with 20 or 25 size guides then choke down to the micro guides. Any of the flopping or loops should be controlled before you even get to the Micro guides. So I don't see were there could be a problem.

But again I've never casts 1/32 to1/6 oz lures; the weightlessness of the lure could affect that. I am building one now that I will put a 1000 reel on and will go buy a few light lures to try on it just to see. What size line and type of line are you using so I can match up with what you are doing.
As far as line goes I've casts everything from 8 to 20 lb Floro and 20-50 lb braid

Terry;
You are completely off base in your theory. It is not the guides that causes back lasses. But a lure that is slowing down faster then the spool or lack of thumb control at the start of the cast. That causes the line to run off the spool at an accelerated rate caused by the thrust involved in the cast over revving the spool faster then the lure is traveling.

There is actually very little cross friction between line and guides.
If your theory were correct then no bait cater would cast well. Because the first line guide is actually on the reel and is very seldom larger then 3.5 to 4mm. Using your theory the reel makers, knowing that guides caused backlashes would also start out with a size 12mm guide just so they could sell their reels.

As far a loosing casting distance with the smaller guides? I will let some of the people that played with or watched them being cast at the show answer that question. Many of them watched a Sinko with hook, NO weight being cast consistently 125 t0 140 ft. using a little side arms flick of the wrist style cast. Even with the flipping/pitching stick using 50 lb braid one gentleman measured of the pitch to be right at ninety ft

I have also done much testing on casting distances between guide sizes and the Micro out perform the larger guides. Even to the point on a pitching stick the 3mm guides out perform 3.5mm guides.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2008 09:44AM by Steve Gardner.

All our tests on a mechanical casting machine showed that smaller guides on the mid and tip section increased casting distance, most likely due to the weight reduction on those areas. More of your imparted energy went into casting and less into starting and stopping the rod. The more mass you set in motion, the more energy is required and the more also required (or wasted) in bringing it to a stop.

On the first couple guides, height is far more important than ring size, although it is possible to go too small. Still, most still use rings that are far larger than they need to be. The New Guide Concept as we presented it in the Volume 10 #4 issue seems to offer the most casting distance of any set up so far. But we also have to be honest in our assessment - a good NGC system beats a really good "Cone of Flight" system by perhaps 3% to 5%. We're not talking about doubling your distance or anything like that.

.........................

I have a spinning rod with micro guides that I use to cast weightless Fluke Jr’s with 10lb Fireline. If you are pulling line through the guides by hand you can feel the loops, but at the line speed of a cast it is completely effortless and the rod outcasts any other spinning rod that I have, probably because of the reduced weight. Lots of times what we feel is happening is not what is really happening on the cast, the only real way to know is to test it and find out.

Thanks Steve...I am new at this and I come here to learn. I would have to assume that I have been mis-lead on my reults because I changed so many variables at the same time. My rods do cast as described...they are very free flowing and effortless, but I would like to narrow down to what really works.
I wasn't able to go to NC, so is there anyhthing anywhere where I can read about the setups/results/more info on this subject?
Thanks again...Terry

Terry;
If you subscribe to Rod Maker Mag.? There are two articles that cover some of this. The first covers some of the set up Volume 10-Issue 4
The second is more of a how to article for working with little guides Volume 11-Issue 1

Here are a few of the threads that have run concerning this subject over the last couple of months. You can also do a search and find more info if you want.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2008 12:05PM by Steve Gardner.

Thanks Steve

Thanks for all the response. I just zipped in for a few minutes so I'll be quick.

1. Steve - THANKS for your generosity in sharing all your info.

a. Indeed, with baitcasting reels, I don't think tiny guides harm distance at all as there's not line coils/loops and the first 'guide' on the reel itself is already incredibly reduced.

b. Out of size 500 reels, I'm using line between 2 and 4 lbs in Fireline, Fluoro and Mono. These coils are IN the line so that even AFTER they go through the guides out of the tip, they do not straighten out and bounce back into a coil. It's subtle but it is definitely there. A large guide lets if flow through easily it seems while the small guides on a sensitive blank definitely gives one a sensation of the coils zipping through the guides, and sometimes has a 'zzzpt' sound to it. Fireline has almost no coil but it is not a fine as 2 lb mono.

I did NOT do an A-B test however to see if I got a distance reduction - for the sake of complete disclosure.....:)

c. If you are using lines HEAVIER than mine, then no need to do tests with lighter lines. The heavier the line, the stronger/stiffer the coils and the greater the disadvantage of small guides IF there is any. So if your data is A-B tested (meaning comparing identical setups with the only variable being guide size), then any heavier line would certainly apply to lighter lines.


2. Tom, yes I do believe that weight differential contributes to the increase in casting difference rather than the physically smaller guide.

If we are to do an extreme test, we can take a bare reel with no guide, have a mechanical device that flings a lure consistently - and record the distance. That would be the ultimate example of untamed line.
Then take a rod with guides and do the same cast with the same device/reel/line and see the impact on distance given tamed line and friction.

Granted, this is extreme. However, IF the rod with guide cast the same distance or further, then it seem pretty conclusive that untamed coils does reduce casting distance due to air friction since the rod/guide is exerting additional friction.

OK, over and out. FUN discussion.

Mo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2008 12:30PM by Mo Yang.

I don't see the small guides as an issue, though I don't have the experience with them as Steve does, I plan on putting some to use very soon for both castgin and spinning. Granted, I'm not generally throwing anything less than 1/8 oz, but the amount of friction that goes on with fishing line going through guides is so minimal on the cast that I can't see it ever beeing a problem.

i would think problems with the coils would stem more from a line slap sort of problem, and woule be solved by changing the transitions guides, not the running guides as the line shoudl be under control at such a point whether one is using 3s, 6s or 8s

My son just mentioned something in an e-mail. When he was in Canada last year the cottonwoods were blooming and his #6 running guides were balling up with the stuff. I suppose it helps keep it out of the reel. We also get some really slimy green crap in the water here in MN during the algae bloom in the summer. It will be interesting to see how the little guides perform in these conditions.

I have seen high speed photos of a spinning rod being cast and what it shows is that almost ALL the loops are gone by the second guide, From that point guide size would seem to be a non factor as far as loop reduction and the tiny guides will give a mechanical advantage. I would think that any increase in friction would be too small to consider. After all a 1 mm guide would still be several times the diameter of most lines we use in freshwater (25-30 pound test). I have used size 20 guides and size 25 for years and can see no difference. Since we can now get these smaller guides (I have some on order now) I am thinking that a higher framed size 10 would probably work too. I saw the "snake skin special" that started with a size 10 (and it was not really a high frame at all) at the show that is supposed to cast really well! I am ready to give them a go I am! Now if we could only get some smaller sized tips!

Funny you should mention that
I am working on that same set up, after talking with Pat about it.
Pat is casting 20 lb braid through it with no problem. But he said he had not tried mono yet.
I will experient with both to see how much if any differences there are.

terry i use bait casters, the first craink bait rod i built spiral wrap the first guide out was tooooooo far out, all that thing did was back lash. once i figured it out added another guide, a ten, two eights and the rest sixes no problems

BIC doug

GREAT comments. A few thoughts.

1. I'm not concerned about line friction - but the energy robbed by having to straighten the loops. I know that even with 4 lb line, I've seen loops that do not straighten even out of the tip. This happens because the line is resilient and it bounces back to the shape it's been forced into by being wound on the spool. It's subtle but it is there.

2. Braid - true braids (not Fireline) is so limp that there's no memory so speak of and in those cases, I don't think that a small guide really makes much difference. Fluorocarbon however is stiffer and has more memory than even most mono.

Just to be clear - I'm NOT arguing anything. Just asking and making observations. I'd like to know that I'm wrong about my concerns.

Mo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2008 09:03PM by Mo Yang.

Mo I can't say you’re wrong?

I can't even say you're your right?

All I can say is that I have run 10 to 12 lb. Floro through 2.5mm guides for over a year on different spinning rods, that out cast rods I have with 6mm guides, and similar actions.

And with 3mm being the smallest that can be had at the moment it gives you 1/2mm more to work with.

I'm putting the final touches on a rod tonight with 1.5mm guides on it that I will be testing some time next week.
I will make it a point to at least run 10lb floro through them and let you know.