Tom,
My post dissappeared. Why was it removed. I posted a source that I am not affilliated with in any way shape or form and got us a good deal for the abalone. Please let me know what I did wrong.

If it was an unsolocited advertisement then a moderator probably removed it. Have the company contact me about becoming a sponsor. It'd be nice to have another company to help me pay the bills here. We're still running in a deficit situation.

If someone specifically asks for a source for whatever product you mentioned, you can use their private email to make sure they get that information. Thanks.

...........

I got over 30 posts from people wanting to know the source. So, let me get this right...... If someone finds a new and innovative product that will expand the horizons of rodbuilding, they can't be mentioned? Example, if someone finds an innovatice product that from Walmart and walmart only, it can't be mentioned because Walmart doesn't advertise? Aqua Blue Maui is NOT going to advertise with the site at this time. There are only 3 posters on here that are buying abalone sheets and doing this. Less that 1/50th of their business is with fishing rods. They don't know anything about fishing. This is something new and exciting to us. Its something that is absolutely new to rodbuilding and a lot of people are excited about it. Heck, it was new and exciting enough to have a seminar about it. I put a lot of time and effort into getting rock bottom, direct from the manufacturer pricing for fellow rodbuilders. Im not making a buck on the veneer. I meerly put up information about a source for abalone that is cheaper by 50% than current suppliers as a service to the rodbuilding community. Nothing more, nothing less. Now, if things go well and the volume starts moving through the manufacturer, I am sure that they will consider sponsoring on the board.

The information that I posted was done so in the spirit of why this board is on existance (I think), which is to share sources, ideas, techniques, innovative advancements, etc.
In situations like this, give a company a chance to get an new and innovative product into the hands of rodbuilders and THEN go after them for advertising. If they were on here going after business, that would be one thing, but I as a rodbuilder who was not asked or forced to come on here and tout the wares of a company. I worked for weeks with this company to get pricing that is pennies compared to the gouging that is currently being seen for this product and something that will be affordable for rodbuilders to use in their rods. The one argument I have heard about using the abalone sheets is the price. Everyone says "wow that is beautiful, but I wont use it because it is expensive!" I have blown that objection out of the water with the pricing that I have negotiated for fellow rodbuilders. It does nothing but hurt or stifle the creativity of rodbuilders if this happens all of the time. Why should I think outside of the box and come up with new products to use in our rodbuilding if their product does not come with a sponsorship form?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2008 09:19PM by kevin knox.

Kevin,
I think one problem MAY be the fact that sponsors here are not allowed to list prices in posts. That may be why it was pulled. Prices aren't supposed to be listed

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Edited, Hope that passes muster.

KAK

Kevin;
Coming from a completely natural corner, s jut a rod builder who plugs in here, ho was also intrigued by the info you posted.

If this had been my web site I would have pulled the plug also. It's not fair to the sponsors who financially support this site so they can reap the advertising rewards for doing so. To have another company product advertised for free. Even though you intentions were pure and in an effort to share what you have found.

Only to have you list the same info over again. For which I would again remove it.

I did not see the post and if prices were mentioned then it was right to have been removed. Maybe the best action would have been to edit the post or have Kevin edit the post to remove prices. If you look back on past post you will find many that have a non-sponsers wed site added and those were not removed. Show me a sponser here that sells abalone and this is a mute issue. Kevin was good enough to post a fine tutorial that a lot of builders were looking for. He was not asking any money for this tutorial.

Really makes you want to come here and post tutorials don't it?

Hank
On The Rocks Fishing
Wells, ME.

I removed all of it. Happy? WHich vendor to the left sells abalone? I guarentee if I called each sponsor, they would not even know what it is. Thats why I posted the info. None of the current list of sponsors have the veneer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2008 09:35PM by kevin knox.

Kevin, I'm behind you. (Not that it means anything.) I appreciated the sharing of information.

Kevin;
This was not an attack on you! I loved the info you shared.

It's a point of business and it doesn't mater whether it was abalone, roofing nails, helicopters, or the fact that none of the sponsors carry the product.

But that the sponsors pay for this site by advertising so we can access it for free. And part of the privilege of that payment is not having to pay for a sight that others don't have to pay for to advertise on.

If it were not that way, they would not be motivated to advertise. Why not just wait until some with a good heart and good intentions like you does it for them at no cost.
I personally use many products that are not provided by our sponsors. Products that I think would be beneficial to builders. But I will not put that info on this board out of respect for the paying sponsors. If I paid for this sight or if the builders that visit everyday did, then I would post that info to the benefit of all.

I agree with Kevin. It's one thing if a sponser sells a product, but when no sponser sells the product why not allow a person to post where to buy from.
I think if someone finds anything that is of use to rodbuilders and a sponser doesn't sell it they should be able to post a place to buy it. If there is enough demand a sponser will start stocking it!! Keeping secrets isn't what this board is susposed to be about.

There have been many posts about products that can't be bought from sponsers, I've seen posts about the West Systems Epoxy's and I don't think any sponser sells this (I apoloigize if someone does). I don't think Harbor Freight is sponser.

Just my opinion and thanks to Kevin for sharing.

Hope everyone has fun in NC.

Stan

I agree that if none of the sponsors carry that sort of thing it should be allowed. Their was a thread a couple of days ago about wood lathes and Penn State Industries got named at least half a dozen times and they aren't a sponsor. Thier was even prices name in some of the posts (I was one of the people that posted prices sorry) and they didn't get pulled. If one of the sponsors carried it or something similar the post should be pulled. But when they dont I can't see a problem with it if you pull one post for a paticular reason you should pull them all. This is by no means an attack on anyone that pulled the said post or agree to the post being pulled it is just my opinion. I would like to know more about abalone

I hate to give anyone a hard time but some of these comments are just way off base. Some of you need to operate your own forums for a bit to see the problems when posts like this are allowed - you'd lose half your sponsors in a hurry. Everything is easy when someone else (me) is footing the bills. Things are not always as they might seem at first glance.

I don't think there's another rod building website on the internet that has the level of sharing we have here. But there are economic realities involved. And... there is a bit more to this than most of you are basing your opinions on.

No one here is stopping you from sharing your information with those who ask - that's why we have the private email function enabled. If someone asks, email them and tell them. Unsolicited advertising by or for non-sponsors is not allowed. It doesn't matter what they're selling - every sponsor here at one time had a product that no one else has-had, but my webhost still charges me just the same.

.............


Kevin,

Keep in mind that I print RodMaker only for the good of the rod building craft. I don't make a dime on it. But my printer still hits me for $35,000 each time I print an issue. I used your same argument about only trying to help the rod builders with my webhost and webmaster - they didn't buy it. They still charge me full price. I told the Showplace that I only wanted to host the ICRBE for the good of the rod builders - I don't make a dime off of it. Guess what - they still hit me for $25,000 for just this single weekend.

Bottom line - anyone who thinks that I am against the sharing of information or preventing such a thing from taking place, well... were are you when the bills come due? You never seem to be around. I challenge you to find just one person in this entire craft that spends what I do to make such sharing possible. I challenge you to find anyone that spends even 10% of what I do so all this sharing can take place. The fact is, it takes money to enable the means for this sharing to take place, but few are willing to step up to the plate and ante up. Yet I do it every day and yet somehow I'm always the bad guy who's preventing folks from sharing rod building information. Imagine that.
..............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2008 01:09AM by Tom Kirkman.

Tom, I remember posts where people have suggested ways to help pay with memberships ect. This works for other websites and fishing websites, it allows people who want to spend extra too, while still letting non-subscribers read and post the way they always have.

That is a lot of money you spend, thank you. I for one have paid for my subscription for over 5 years and would gladly pay a yearly fee for the website. If you need it my address is on my Rodmaker subscription.

Good luck this weekend.

Stan McLean

Wow all these sponsors are not able to pay the bills on this wedsite?!?!?! How much bandwidth is being used here? Is this running on a dedicated server or something? Or maybe the prices I have in my head for advertising here are way way lower than I thought. For some reason I believed this site could be run on a $10 a month plan with the amount of posts and users I see here. There must be tens of thosands of lurkers or something.

Maybe you would get more sponsors Tom, if you actually let people FREELY exchange sources and ideas. If you want to talk to me about it, I am getting in my truck and driving to the show in a few minutes. I will be the 6'2" 250lb guy wearing a coral (not pink) hat with strawberry blonde hair.

The fact that I posted this information because I wasn't willing to wait for someone else to do it as an article Im sure chapped some on the site. Oh well. Thats how life is. I don't want a penny for the sharing of ideas. If we all kept waiting for someone else to do it, nothing would ever get done.

I prepaid multiple years subscription so you have money from me. Maybe this year, you should not pay speakers and save the profit from the show to pay for other stuff through the year. That way you at least break even. We all know we are not going to break even or get rich doing this. And, if someone wants to be paid for their lecture time, then move on and get people that will take the payment and give it back. Don't boohoo me about money. We are all making nothing in this craft. Maybe you should surround yourself with people that don't have their hand out, with those that want to lend a giving hand.

Kevin



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2008 06:53AM by kevin knox.

Stan,

The number of people who would actually pay a fee to use this site is minute. I've been around the block on this more than most of the folks here and I can tell you we wouldn't raise enough money that way to fund the site for one month, and... we'd soon have very little to no traffic here and the sponsors would leave as well. I'm not guessing - this is no different than all the folks who wanted RodMaker magazine binders and RodMaker CDs. Other than a very, very few, they disappeared once those items were available.

The concept you suggest is a noble one, but it's been tried on at least one other rod building forum and quite a few other craft type forums and all have failed. Folks expect internet use to be free, at least on the public end.

.....

Kevin,

You won't find a site where more information is exchanged than you do on this site. We have some rules here and they're applied across the board. Had you read the rules or checked with me first we could have avoided this.


........

Henry,

You must be kidding - $10 a month for a site that gets over 7 million hits a month, hosts the largest rod building photo page, online library and all the other associated features this site has? The photo page alone eats up a ton of bandwidth. And yes, the sponsor fees are far, far less than you probably imagine. That's one reason that I can't understand why a few companies left won't get on board here - they'd see a tremendous return on what is really a tiny investment considering the traffic here. The ones listed to the left can attest to the value this site offers them. They help cover the cost here and that's one of the reasons why I'm sympathetic to their concerns about unsolocited advertising from non-sponsors regarding any product or service. There are a lot of things to consider there that most don't even think of, because they're not the ones who get an earful when such a post is made - I do.

......

The post was against the rules, the moderators pulled it and that's that. No offense intended, but if this site is not to your liking, please find one that is. There are plenty of them out there, although you won't find much activity on most of them. I'm not mad at anyone, I know Kevin was only trying to help, but we will continue to remove posts for unsolocited advertisements for non-sponsors. I'm busy trying to get folks set up for the show and this is just being blown way out of proportion.

..............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2008 08:28AM by Tom Kirkman.

"we will continue to remove posts for unsolocited advertisements for non-sponsors" as quoted by Tom. That's great I think we all should follow the rules but that has not been the case. I even get upset when I see someone post to go to @#$%& to purchase a blank or other rod building supplies, that's just wrong but those post were not removed.

I can see why Kevin was so upset. If you look at kevins original post [www.rodbuilding.org] on Feb 16, 2008 the very last response where a rodbuilder gave 2 web address to purchase Abalone and that was not removed.

As far as getting help to run this site you have had many offers over the years that you turn down for one reason only and that is that you are afraid you would not have complete control. I monitor a fishing site where donations, fundraisers are held to help pay for the web site and if you think that the owner of that site has lost control of his site think again. You don't play by the rules you're told very quickly.

I guess what I'm saying is the rules must apply to all not just some. Time will tell which set of rules are applied.

Hank
On The Rocks Fishing
Wells, ME.

Hey Kevin. . . I appreciate your input. I wasn't knowledgeable on this subject at all until you posted. Your post gave me enough info and confidence to talk to suppliers of these veneers. I'll e-mail you direct. Thanks

"Life is too short to fish with UGLY rods!"

>
> Henry,
>
> You must be kidding - $10 a month for a site that
> gets over 7 million hits a month, hosts the
> largest rod building photo page, online library
> and all the other associated features this site
> has? The photo page alone eats up a ton of
> bandwidth. And yes, the sponsor fees are far, far
> less than you probably imagine. That's one reason
> that I can't understand why a few companies left
> won't get on board here - they'd see a tremendous
> return on what is really a tiny investment
> considering the traffic here. The ones listed to
> the left can attest to the value this site offers
> them. They help cover the cost here and that's
> one of the reasons why I'm sympathetic to their
> concerns about unsolocited advertising from
> non-sponsors regarding any product or service.
> There are a lot of things to consider there that
> most don't even think of, because they're not the
> ones who get an earful when such a post is made -
> I do.
>

I figured as much, there had to be a whole lot of lurkers and people not posting. I also noticed there is no file size limit on the pictures that would eat bandwidth to no end. In my defense my current web host is giving me 15,000 GB a month for 12 bucks I dont know how the quilaity of service would be etc etc with a shared server and a low priced plan but bandwidth certainly has gotten alot cheaper in the past few years might want to look into shopping for a new host. Also a donation button might be a good idea with 7 million hits if just a small percentage of the unique visitors would give a dollar or two your deficit problems might be solved. Anyways I hope it soimeday works itself out for ya.