Ok,

I know vibration is the key to sensitivity in the hand.

Vibration is a waveform, such as sound and, well, "waves".

Waves can be dampened (when absorbed), deflected (think refraction and reflection) or transmitted.

I can wrap my head around a foam grip absorbing (damping) some of a blanks vibration, thus making it less sensitive in your hand.

-BUT-

Where I get mixed up is when the material gets denser.

for example:

graphite blank transitioning to a graphite reel seat

-vs-

graphite blank transitioning to a aluminum reel seat

--One one hand, I'd think the alum. would transmit the vibration better and thus give better sensitivity to the hand.

--On the other hand I keep thinking of sunlight hiting the denser water, so that some is reflected (polarization) and some is bent (refraction)

I think I need to sit down..lol

This makes me think f the Law of Diminishing Returns.

In the long and short of it, the material the seat is made from does indeed make a difference. In practical terms, and considering the materials that most of our current seats are made from, the human hand isn't likely to be able to tell any difference.

One wins out on weight, one wins out on rigidity. Which is better? I'm not sure but I doubt you could ever tell the difference in the hand.

............

If you want to eliminate the "issue" with the reel seat interfering with the sensitivity of the rod, then don't use one. Just tape the reel dirrectly to the grip material. Better yet, leave the blank exposed and tape the reel directly to the blank.

Now I bet we get some questions about whether the reel foot will also impede sentivitiy.

Craig, it's not that the question isn't well thought-out or presented, or that it's not valid as a "pure" question. It's that, as Billy said, you've reached the far end of the law of diminishing returns.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

Anything you add, be it weight or a different material, etc., will impede sensitivity in some by some amount (we're talking vibration transmission here, right?).

At some point we begin to split hairs, however, and unless you're doing something really oddball or to some excess, I just can't see you ever being able to tell the difference in sensitivity between a nylon, aluminum or no seat at all. Not by the human hand, anyway.

............

Well, the reason I'm asking is about spinning reels. Even on reel seats where the blank is exposed, alot of the contact is actually with the reel itself. I'm looking for max sensitivity on a rod for weightless soft plastics. So am really wondering if, in this circumstance, a graphite reel foot might be more sensitive than a high end alum solid metal body reel.

Thanks again !

Craig

I personally, have evolved from using cheaper reels with graphite to higher end reels over the years.

My vote would be for the better quality reels. Not really sure if the "better feel" comes from the material. As much as from "quality of construction", but for me it is definitely there.

It’s my experience that the cheaper reels produce, send out, create, or what ever you want to call it-FALSE SIGNALS that can hinder the feel of the rod.

I think this is because of loose tolerances in them. When a reel rattles or you can feel the gears messing together, when there is slop in the spools mounting to the reels drives shaft when there is a lot of play between parts and a slow hookup to the anti-reverse. These things over power what you might be feeling through the rod, taking away from what you are looking for. Basically the more I feel the reel the less I feel the bait or the fish

I would suggest you spend the money to invest in a reel that is totally smooth, with tight tolerances, and an anti-reverse that locks up on moment the reel handle is reversed.

Craig
Rodmaker Vol 10 issue 4, has a good article about rod sensitivity, called vibronic rods, written by Steve gardner.Might be what your looking for.
Steve
fish till you drop

I'm with Steve Gardner - why put a cheap reel on any rod? Ever!

Hey guys ........ Craig is asking about the sensitivity of reel seats not the affects of the grade of reel on sensitivity. While I have both good qualit and cheap reels, I've never found the grade of reel had any affect on sensivity because you seldom turn the handle when you need sensivity i.e jigging or dragging a worm etc. That said ...... I've fished with rods that you couldn't feel a thing and others where you could feel the fish breath on the lure ............... and I to would like to know the difference too ......... and what makes the difference to the rodmaking that makes a rod so sensitive ......... and sorry ..... while I do have some of the back issues of Rodmaker I don't have that issue .........

Sorry but I don't see where Craig's question has been answered ...........

Thanks
Rick

Richard;
Even if you aren't reeling when moving your worm, you are in most cases moving the rod, which moves the line, which increases and decreases pressure that line is putting on the reel and with every one of those actions a reel with loose tolerances is moving back and forth inside. Sending false signals or covering up actual signals coming form a fish biting on the other end of that line.

The only exception that I can think of being dead sticking a worm on a totally calm day so that no way action is moving things about.

But apart from that it is my personal belief that reels with harder components (including the frame) will transmit vibrations better then reels with softer components

You can test this by taking a hammer and hitting a pillow with it to see how well you feel the vibrations back through the hammers handle. Then go hit a bowling ball the same way. It will rattle your arm to the shoulder socket. Or piece of cork verses a piece of concrete, or your reels graphite foot verses one with a metal frame. The results will all be the same with some variance on how much it affects your arm depending on the hardness of each item you hit.

Steve;

I understand that harder substances usually transmit vibrations more efficiently .

You sem to imply that you get more "feel" from the reel than the rod but I find I that I get more vibrations ( feel) from my reel seats and the foregrips. I (like Craig ) are interested on how to make my foregrips and reel seats as sensitive as possible. If I understand you correctly that the harder the rod seat filler the more sensitive the rod ...... therefore a build up of fiberglass tape and epoxy should be more sensitive than cut arbors but other posts here seem to imply that the arbors are more sensitive ........... so what goes into making the most sensitive rods .........

Richard;
Actually I am saying the opposite even though I may not have explained it very well. In effect what I am saying is that: I believe the harder the material on the reel the less it will deaden the vibrations coming through the rod. But at the same time because the reel is in direct contact with my hand I can also feel what is going on in or with my reel and that can detract from the feel of the rod.

I would suggest that you buy or borrow a copy of the RodMaker Vol. 10 issue 4; it goes into detail what I do to make rods more sensitive, or really what I do to keep blanks from losing sensitivity

As Mr. Kirkman has said before (paraphrased)-A rod is at its most sensitive point when it is a bare blank, and anything we add to that blank takes away from it's sensitivity

I don't use graphite abhors or fiberglass tape on my rods. So I cannot honestly respond to which does a better job of retaining a rods sensitivity.

If you look at my earlier analogy from a different angel it might help.

If you wrapped a small pillow around your rod handle then held the pillow you have less feel to what was going on with the rod then if you wrapped that same material that bowling balls are made out of around the handle to hold.
And most definitely in this case that harder material would provide better feel.

Steve,

I completely understand what you are saying. But the question is: Is harder always better?

Yes, bowling ball is more sensitive than a pillow...

But is a GRAPHITE bowling ball more sensitive than a, say, granite bowling ball.

With light, half of the energy is reflected away due to the difference in refractive index when light hits the water. The remainder is bent. This is also why a fish cannot physically see you on the far bank, despite what many fly fishing books claim. but just because a similar substance reflects less (think fluorocarbon vs mono), does this mean greater sensitivity?

As far as reels, I'm thinking of Penn spinning reels, which offer basically the same reel in graphite or aluminum. since a large portion of your hand touches the reel foot, I believe it's at least as important as, say, discussions on blank exposed or not.

“Is harder always better?”
I would say no, but that would depend on the material and application you’re looking to use it for
But in reference to our conversation with reels, and the materials in question I would say mostly, unless the weight of the harder one offsets the balance of that sensitivity by weighing substantially more.

Based on previous conversations with Mr. Emory Harry, lightness has a great deal to do with sensitivity. He has also published an article on it in RodMaker volume 10, issue 1. While I do not agree with everything in the article, it is well worth reading and has some great info in it. If you do not have that issue either? I would suggest getting your hands on it.

In some cases materials of similar weight and hardness resonate vibrations or frequency better then others which I believe is the case with the reels in question even though one is harder then the other.
A good example of this is to take a clean GLASS wine glass and run your finger around the top of it several times. Then do the same with a CRYSTAL wine glass. It becomes obvious that the crystal transmits vibration and frequency better. In this case I would say the crystal wine glass IS more sensitive.

I can’t say that about graphite to granite bowling balls because I’ve not experimented with them.

I’m not sure what a conversation on density and material hardness/sensitivity has to do with light refractions. But I would say the fluorocarbon is more sensitive and harder then mono.

I don’t use Penn reels, but since you do, you have the perfect opportunity to do some testing and see for yourself which proves to be the more sensitive. Buy using each reel on the same rod and seeing what the results are.

“Since a large portion of your hand touches the reel foot, I believe it's at least as important as, say, discussions on blank exposed or not”.
I totally agree! which is one of the reasons you should read the article on Vibronics Rods as Mr. Stanfill suggested.

If you're specifically talking about the reel itself, I would just select the lightest reel you can make use of. Your hand will be on the blank and/or the reel seat so you'll feel vibrations via those mediums before you will through the reel foot stem. But the weight of the reel does make some difference, albeit probably very slight. Still, I'd opt for the lightest possible reel.

................

Ok ........ so let me summarize what I think has been said .......

1) A rod is at its most sensitive point when it is a bare blank, and anything we add to that blank takes away from it's sensitivity

Therefore since I get my sensitivity from the reel seat that must be shimmed somewhat and the foregrip of my spinning tackle, it would benefit the sensitivity if I made a foregrip short enough to allow my finger to be directly on the blank .........

2) The denser the material, the lighter the material and the more consistent the material the more sensitive the feel. The denser because it will transmit frequency of vibrations better, the lighter ..... I don't know , using consistent material would allow the frequency's of continue while changing materials will probably lose some sensitivity because different materials react to vibration frequencies differently ........ some will be absorbed and some will be transmitted ......... Therefore, if I could use a graphite rod with a graphite arbor with some graphite based adhesive inside of a graphite reelseat, then I would probably have the most sensitive rod. Barring that I should probably try to find the hardest arbor material for the reelseat because the harder the material the more vibration frequencies will be transmitted and less will be absorbed.

Sensitivity = vibrations recieved ....... it's just a wave and behaves as any other wave ......... the more the transition media changes, the more the wave is lost .........

Is this reasoning on the right track ..........

Guys,

There are just too many variables here.

The basic premise for any rod/reel set up is to make it as light as possible.

After that, the material of the reel, the quality of the reel, even the material of the reel seat, will make less difference than adding five feet of mono to the mix.

The loss of sensitivity due to the stretch of the line changes with distance. This change, over just few feet, is greater than the difference between graphite and fiberglass, much less between different reel materials.

Braided lines make it better, but only somewhat. Until you can guarantee a straight, direct to the rod tip, 100% vibration transfer link to the lure/bait, it just won't matter. Not even a little bit. Fishing line isn't very good at this.

You guys are spiltting hairs to no purpose here.

The human nervous system won't be able to tell any difference.

Buddy

Buddy;

I think we understand that different factors will affect sensitivity in a specific situation. We are focusing here on just what makes a reel seat and foregrip more sensitive since that is where I hold the rod and feel what is going on ............ and I respectfully disagree ......... I have fished with 2 identical setups before and one was very sensitive and the other wasn't (because my buddy was so impressed with mine that he bought the same outfit ...... same production rod and same reel and same line) .......... so I'm curious about the finer points of sensitivity .......

and lets face it ....... if it wasn't about splitting hairs, we wouldn't be building rods ......

Not only is Buddy right (the only point to be made here is that lighter is better) but I'll add that this is not limited to spinning reels, but to light-tackle conventional reels as well.

OK, you're not going to throw a bare worm very far with a casting reel. But you can throw some very light plastics with this type of equiment, and then you have the same problem, because your reel-hand is generally in contact with the reel as well as the rod for the duration of the time the lure is in the water.

Most folks actually stay in contact with the LINE in either situation, keeping a finger on the line at the reel while swimming very light baits, between cranks on the handle. The sensitivity, then, is transferred to the hand from the rod and line, not the reel.

There's an old trick - let out some excess line (sort of like stripping fly line) and lob a nightcrawler out as far as you can. This is for near-shore or near-the-boat fishing, BTW. Now watch the line sink. If it straightens or makes any motion (twitch, stop, etc.) at the worm sinks, set the hook. It's bobber fishing without the bobber and it works for bluegill, crappie, or even bass in close, right down into a stickup. There's no sensitivity involved because you see the take before you feel it, and with the loose line you'll never feel it first. Reminds you of fly fishing with nymphs, yes? Watch the leader - - -

Add a bobber. Again, it's done by watching, not by feeling. You can catch some amazing fish this way, including trophy SW trout and redfish. In fly fishing, watch the strik indicator - - -

However, in these types of spinning or conventioanl fishing, light gear is absolutely needed, because you have to be able to throw nothing more than a worm (even with a bobber attached) and you have to be able to control the line even when it's slack. That includes all the components - grips, reel, reel seat (if you're not using a Tenn. or skeleton grip), guides, rod, etc. For some of you, I bet you're surprised to see me say that, because you know how I feel about rod design, guides, etc. But this is the way I grew up fishing, and I still build the occasional rod for other folks who want something that harks back to the days of Fenwick Fenglas in about 5', with wire guides - remember?

And I still have one of those old Fenwick rods. A cricket, a worm, and nothing else; and then a mess of bluegill or crappie or bass for dinner.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods