Hello,
I apologize in advance, since this topic has probably been beaten to death, and has so many variables.

Anyway, I'm going to be building several freshwater fly rods this winter, from 3wt to 6wt, and in lengths ranging from 7' to 9'. Most of the rods will only be used with floating lines, but a couple will also be used with sink tips and full sinking lines as well. I plan to use high frame stripping guides, but am wondering if there is really all that much difference as to the insert type for light, freshwater fly rods like these.

I've used SIC, Hardloy (Hialoy?), and TiCH inserts in the past. However, since most of the rods I've built have ended up being given to friends and family members, I don't have any real long term data of my own to rely on here.

In lighter weight freshwater fly rods like these, is there really much difference as far as shootability, longevity of fly lines and grooving in the inserts over long term use, etc.? I mean, there are so many insert types out there....SIC, Hardloy (Hialoy?), TiCH, Alconite, Aluminum Oxide, Silcon Nitride, etc. , but I can buy Hardloy stripping guides for $1.00 each, whereas SICs are $5.00 each. I know, $4 isn't much difference, but I want the best bang for my buck, and don't want to spend additional money unnecessarily....and these rods are not going to be shooting 100 foot casts into a stiff breeze to cruising tarpon in the salt.

Anyway, thanks in advance for your insights and experience regarding stripping guides.

Tom

There won't be a huge difference in the performance of the guides (although some can tell the difference). A clean, lubricated flyline will flow through any of the ceramics quite freely. The main concerns are cost and look. PVD zirconia is available in blue, gold, holographic and silver. With different frame finishes, there are a range of very affordable options. They are the best bang for the buck in my opinion.

Ceramics do not groove.

Relative comparison:

TiCh is associated with the Frame Finish "Gunsmoke"

Hardness (high to low) - not sure where Alconites "fit"
1/ SIC
2/ Zirconia substrate with PVD coating for color sometimes noted as Titanium Nitride
3/ Halide or "H" (high strength Aluminum Oxide
4/ Aluminum oxide (many/most still have "shock rings")

Cost: (high to low) - again not sure where Alconites place
1/ SIC
2/ American Tackle titanium frame ( "Nanolite" ring)
2/ (Fuji) Hardloy
3/ American Tackle "Ring Lock" ("Nanolite ring)
4/ American Tackle / Batson Enterprises "Zircona / ZrO"
5/ American Tackle Halide

None will groove.

Cost benefit says the American Tackle / Batson Enterprise rings are the best bargain - in my opinion.
I haven't seen ALL the "ring lock" designs "in hand" like the ALPS XN's marketed by Batson Enterprises but those
I think are the most 'attractive' looking guides and the little extra ring support on the leading edge can only
help stabilize the insert. Just "look good" - especially on fly rods (again just my opinion)

I've seen the advertisements for the newest American Tackle guides in their catalog - titanium frames but
haven't had my fingers on any (yet)

Alconite will fit in around the "Hard" aluminium oxide mark.

Here is a 'cut and paste' from an older post ...

VICKER'S HARDNESS SCALE Values
for Line Guide Ring Materials 2005

Stainless Steel (SS): 400
Chrome: 800-1000
Carbaloy: 1000
Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400
Alconite (Fuji): 1300-1500
NanoLite (Titan): 1800
Zirconia: 1000-1400
Zirconia PVD: 1600
SiC: 2200-2400

Thank you for the replies on this.

The Zirconia rings do look like a nice compromise: very hard, but less expensive than SIC. And they visually look very sharp as well.

I was just checking out the Batson/Forecast BUDUG (more traditional appearance) and BVDUG (higher frame), as well as the American Tackle BCCB, and these would definitely work for me (I'm going for the dark hardware, so that's why I'm liking the black frames).

Tom

Thanks Jim! I had never seen any Vicker's numbers for the Nanolite.

That post was an old one from Cliffy ... credit where credit is due.

Before you decide, try this. Take a SIC, a Cerment, an Alconite, and any other ceramic guide you are considering. Take a paper clip or guide foot or some piece of metal and rub it around the inside of the guide. I think you will find that the Cerment followed by the SIC are noticbly "slicker" than the other ceramics in this test. I don't know if it really means anything, but it was impressive to me to feel so much difference in the finish smoothness. I don't know if that is a property of the material or if the more expensive guides are also polished better. I suspect the latter.

Nope, the former. SiC and Gold Cermet can't even be scored with a metal file ... it is some HARD material.

Bill Moschler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know if that is a
> property of the material or if the more expensive
> guides are also polished better. I suspect the
> latter.

A friend let me fondle and look at a few American Tackle Ring Lock stripping guides in a black color with black Nanolite rings. Very light and nice looking guides.

He said he's been impressed with the slickness and casting ability of these guides, and he's played with comparing insert smoothness and slickness, similar to what Bill mentioned. Plus, the product description as well as the hardness scale value mentioned above make these look like a good deal. I can pick these up for $2.25 to $2.60 each in the sizes I need, so think I may go this route.

Thanks for all the info and help!

Tom

It might be my file, but I tried and was unable to scratch the rings on, Hialoy, Hardaloy, Alconite and Batson Hard AO with a 3 sided file. While the Vickers hardness numbers show some differences in hardness, my guess is that any of them are more than hard/slick enough Not to groove and capable of handling any fishing situation. Some materials are harder than others, but there comes a point when "So What" It's like the thread strength debates. My only concern would be "is it hard or strong enough?"

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Keep your lines clean and your guides clean.

Unless you are a NASA scientitst. I dont think you will notice the difference.

Most of the time it comes down to how well We Cast

I fish therefore I am.
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