Has anyone seen any thing printed anywhere that may quantify what is needed for a proper "hook set". I am looking for either pounds of pull, distance of travel or any thing related to speed and velocity. All the bass fishermen use the term but I have not had one be able to describe any physical requirements other than how strong and or quick they may happen to be.

I rarely need to do anything more than to start reeling, or a slight tug, and dont let the line go slack, to get a good enough hook set when recreational fishing. The theatrics of the tournament bass fisherman may be more about getting the fish in quickly as it is about the "hook set".

Bill,

The 'concept' of the hook set for a bass fisherman is basically very simple to describe but there are many factors that make it extremely difficult to quantify.

To 'successfully' hook a bass, you need to exert enough force on the hook point for it to penetrate into the fish.

Size and sharpness of the hook, type of line use (stretch factor is the primary concern), type of bait used and how it's rigged, the location of any weights used, the length and action of the rod involved, distance from the angler, plus the strength and speeed of the angler ALL play a part. I'm sure I left some stuff out, including the 'part' of the fish the hook point is attempting to penetrate (some parts of a bass are harder than others).

It's not just 'how hard' you can pull, how far you move the rod, the tightness of the line, nor how 'fast' you move the rod, but a combination of ALL of these that will allow you set a hook into a bass.

There are some guys who do well with a tight line 'hard pull' (those rear back and tear their lips off types), others that fare well with a 'slack line pop' (kind of like snapping a whip-speed accelerates the hook int othe fish). Some will use just a steady pull (works okay with a sharp and unobstructed hook, but useless on a hook with it's point inside a plastic bait)

In any event, too many variables to 'quantify' this.

If what you are looking for is a way to build a rod that sets the hook 'better', it's not about the rod as much as it is about the skill of the angler and how/with what he fishes.

Good Luck!

Buddy

A friend of mine that used to fish on the pro tour would always stress a short, very fast ,snap hook set, Not the type where you drop the rod tip, take up the slack and then set her home. He said they felt it was in the speed of the hook set and not in the distance the rod tip was moved. I don't have a clue if this helps or not.

Thank you for your comments - I am looking for any real numbers that may be printed somewhere. I am going to build a test stand and measure the comparative forces using different blanks. It is my contention that the use of a higher modulus stiffer blank by the same fisherman SHOULD require a different length of power stroke to deliver the same hook set power. If they want different blanks, for all the techniques, I honestly believe they should understand that matching techniques for acceptable hook set should also be involved. If I can demonstrate this with a simple device like Tom's spiral wrap test stand I will be a lot more comfortable selling an old fisherman a lighter more sensitive fishing rod. If I can get him to lay off a little it will be one big advantage. They want to use the argument on hook set and ignore that they want to turn large fish and bring them out of heavy cover head first. Many of the new high modulus blanks are powerful enough for the head turn but are unable to take the instantaneous excessive stroke of a hook set.

I am seeking anything written on the subject for reference purposes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2007 06:46PM by Bill Stevens.

Too many bass fishermen, and just fishermen in general, think that by hitting or setting the hook harder, they'll accomplish more. That's not necessarily true.

You have to move line and you have overcome any stretch or slack in that line. Shorter rods make that hard to do, no matter how much force you exert. Longer rods overcome slack and stretch due to the greater amount of distance the rod tip travels and therefore the further the line is moved.

It really doesn't take much force to set the hook - even in fish with bony mouths. But you have to move the hook. And force isn't really the major part of the equation there.

.................

Bill,
I think that you are playing with fire and if you are not careful you will get your fingers burnt. A higher modulus rod will definitely give the Bass fisherman more sensitivity, easier casting etc. but the higher modulus rod has a significant disadvantage for Bass fishermen of the type that you are describing.
If you think about the modulus of elasticity curve, stress on the vertical axis and strain on the horizontal axis and a straight line in between sloping upward being the modulus of elasticity. Modulus of elasticity is the first derivative of the slope of that line. In other words as the slope of that line becomes steeper, more and more vertical, it means higher and higher modulus of elasticity. The area under that line is called strain energy and if you think about it the more vertical the line is, the higher the modulus of elasticity but the lower the strain energy. If you double the modulus of elasticity you reduce by half the area under the curve or the strain energy. Strain energy is the amount of energy that the rod will absorb or the amount of strain that it will tolerate.
You have also no doubt heard the term strain rate. This makes the problem even worse. At the top of the modulus of elasticity curve is the strength, usually we look at the strength under tension so it is called tensile strength. However, the faster we apply a force to the rod, stress the rod, the lower the tensile strength becomes. This lowering of the tensile strength results in the area under the modulus of elasticity curve, the strain energy, being even lower.
I think that if you will think about all of this for a minute you will come to the conclusion that putting very high modulus rods into the hands of Bass fishermen of the type you describe will just result in you getting back a bunch of broken rods.


Options

I agree. Since I've started using superlines I have found that I can set too hard and tear a hole in the fish that allows the hook to come out on a head shake.

Related true story - I was in a boat with two other guys fishing for bass. I was throwing a jig & pig on 30# PP and set the hook on a bite. I missed the fish...sort of, but had a nice little pair of bass lips on the hook. That time I set too hard. :)

Bill

Do some research thru B.A.S.S. and the likes, I'd be surprised that one of the Pro Bass organizations wouldn't have any useful data you can use to speed up your testing results.

~Mark

Emory you are exacty correct. Rodbuilders build different rods for different techniques. I really believe that fishermen are a part of the learning curve as well and will listen to reason if approached in a logical manner with some simple proof source. They want lighter more sensitive rods and refuse to back off of the older set strokes they previously used on different blanks with more give. I have some guys that want the new stuff but have been given no positive evidence or reason to change their previously developed technique. And Tom is on target too - three six foot six five power blanks broken on set in the past two weeks by two different fishermen. The same guys have had no problems with the seven foot in the same power and stiffness. All were using mono and fishing close to the boat. They are not stupid and if someone could provide a credible test assembly to demo the difference there is a slim chance that they might go along. It really would only involve a slight difference in the length of the stroke. I think it is worth the effort to try to figure out some kind of a demo. They have learned that they can not jump on the shakey head blanks without busting them up and they need them when the bite is off. I am just trying to take it a few steps furthur.

My fingers have already been burned. I have quite a few of the high modulus blanks out working. I want them to work and I think they will if change can be stimulated. I am seeking some Foil Burn Treatment to minimize my loss! There is one large production builder selling at relatively hihg prices and the reason for the elevated price is the warranty return rate not the cost of the rod.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2007 08:45PM by Bill Stevens.

Years ago Fishing Facts did an article where they looked at the structure of a bass' mouth and what the average person would have around that would approximate it for hook penatration tests on various hooks. They found out the average corrigated box was a very close approximation and they did a bunch of tests of the hot hooks of the time. One of the hottest hooks than but it was as dull as a deer antler was the Tru-Turn hooks, so it gives you an idea of how long ago this was.

Bill,
I think most savy knowledgable bass anglers have or are willing to adopt a hootset appropriate to a high modulous rod for certain techniques. However flipping and pitching jigs to cover is not one of those techniques. The whole concept of a "cross their eyes" hookset it this situation is two fold. First you are trying to get a very thick jig hook to penetrate the mouth (while overcoming a weedguard) and second the shock you give the fish with that type of hookset often gives you a few second time frame where the fish isnt fighting well, this allows you to start moving that fish out of the cover and either into the boat or open water.

Other than flipping I think you are right about educating anglers on better ways to set the hook or fight the fish, but I think until you (the builder) can do this yourself you will be hard pressed to teach it to another angler. For as simple as a bass is they can be darn tough to fight at times depending on the lure.

Bill,

Not a chance that you can get a tournament angler to change his hookset based on the rod. If he likes how he sets the hook, and it's worked consistently before, and 'your' rods won't stand up to, he'll look for 'better' rods.

He will, and rightfully so, expect YOU to provide a rod that will withstand the MOST IMPORTANT THING HE DOES WHEN FISHING, 'hooking' the bass.

It does not matter how 'sensitive' the rod is, how light the rod is, or what material it is made of, if he can't get a consistent hookset, it's worthless.

Understand that there are times when, regardless of how well you 'set' the hook, you won't hook a bass. If the bass is in the act of 'crushing' the bait when you try to set the hook, you can't move the hook, and it has nothing to do with the rod, line, or 'technique'. If he hits and is coming towards you when you try to set the hook, it's unlikely that you'll stick the fish. Sometimes the fish hits and spits out the bait awfully quick. Sometimes it just doesn't work.

There are just too many variables to quantify this. You HAVE to move the rod as far as you can, to take out any slack and make sure the line gets tight. You HAVE to move the rod as fast as you can, so that the 'shock' or 'pop' caused by the speed will let the hook penetrate if things aren't optimal at that precise monent, and you have to do it as hard as you can because some areas of the bass' mouth are harder than others, and you have no clue where the hook point will stick. And, you have to do it RIGHT NOW. All you need is about 1/4 inch of movement of the hook point, but it's hard to get it sometimes.

The most consistent hookset I've found in over 40 years of bass fishing is to drop the rod tip and snap it back as far and as fast and as hard as you can, like cracking a whip. One smooth movement done as fast as humanly possilbe. If a rod can't handle this, it's not 'good enough' for me to bass fish with it. Might work okay for trout or panfish, but it ain't a bass rod.

Chuck,

When the 'super braids' first hit the fishing scene, all we could get was some kind of high tech kite string (I think it was made with Spectra by Sarifariland, either that or early Kevlar-thin and around 50 pound test). I put some on my flipping stick, and was using a big jig, 5/0 hook, and got bit. Set the hook into a 2 pound fish and launched it right over the boat. Hook went right through it's head and killed it instantly. Rod did not break, though. Since then, I've taken up the whip crack type of set, and have not 'launched' a bass in quite a few years. Never broken a good rod with it, either (broke some weak rods that were poorly designed, though).

In any event, there is something every rod builder and fisherman should try. Take whichever rod you want, string it up with mono of your choosing. Put a hook on the end of the line. Have a friend hold the hook by the bend with the tips of his thumb and forefinger (so it won't get stuck in him). Back off fifty feet. Tell him to hold on tight, but let his arm hang loose. Then set the hook in any manner you choose. It's unusual if you can MOVE his arm, much less pull the hook out of his grip.

Good luck with this, but I just don't think you can use a machine or a formula for this one.

Buddy

Buddy the fifth and sixth paragraphs of what you wrote have been challenged by many of the successful tournament guys backing off and downsizing to lighter more sensitive systems when the bite is off. They discovered when it hit them in the pocket book that they needed to change - for these techniques they learned a totally different hook set stroke. If it is as you say a "one size fits all" then all blank manufacturers need to stop making and selling lighter, more sensitive higher modulus blanks and go back to fiber glass. I am sorry but I really feel that custom builders can impact this situation with some good simple communication that will impact a limited number of fishermen to start. Maybe custom builders need to take advantage of Staff Fishermen more than they do - who knows - I am going to work on it to see what happens.

Buddy brings up a very good point - "All you need is about 1/4 inch of movement of the hook point."

Anyone that is having trouble setting the hook, and assuming their technique is reasonably decent, need only move to a rod a few inches longer and most times this will take care of the trouble in hook setting. I've moved several guys to rods just 3 or 4 inches longer than what they had and suddenly the number of hooksets they missed or fish that managed to throw the hook was either completely eliminated or cut by a noticeable amount.

.................

What concerns me more is watching them grab the rod above the foregrip and hoisting 4 pound bass into the boat. How can I warranty that?

This thread is presenting some very good information:

My current problem is not missed fish - it is "impact type multiple failure point" breakage of high modulus blanks. I do not have a large enough customer base or history to include breakage in my initial price.

Scott Sheets makes a valuable point above - I have had no single point blank failure caused by slow progressive increased blank
load fish retrieval from heavy cover - with nearly all of the rods in use the fish can be brought out of cover the way the bait went in. All blank failures are multiple (two or more segments) point and occur during the initial hard, fast, long arc hook set like Buddy describes. All of them have been on 6' 6" high modulus blanks. I have had no problems with the 86 - 92 in flippin blanks.

Buddy, I just went outside and tested your hook holding test with a Lamiglas XMG 785 and 25 feet of 14# mono - I don't think anyone has the grip to hold the hook as you describe with that blank. I cut the barb off before trying -

Bill,
Do you know the details of what they are doing? Blank, line, lure, technique and the type of cover they are fishing??

Yes Scott, I do have. I have a meeting set up Saturday with 11 of them that belong to one club. I am going to use the information printed on this thread as a basis for a real head knocking. I am hoping to plant a small seed. They are snapping the $ 325 production rods and their warranty returns are starting to slow down. I saw one rod broken last week within an inch of the end of a no foregrip reel seat. I can not warrant the failures that are occurring and hopefully, if they really want the light high modulus stuff, they will reconsider some of their old habits.

I wish you luck, but getting Bass fishermen to “reconsider some of their old habits” is a losing battle. We can’t even convince them to hold the rod in their dominant hand…