Tom Kirkman Wrote in an earlier thread about guide weight vs. slickness:
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>The line isn't putting much pressure on the guide surfaces when
> casting so the SIC rings (of which I'm a big fan)
> isn't going to really give you any added distance
> from the slickness of the ring surface.

That statement just blows me away. I've never heard anyone claim that friction between the guides and line isn't an issue. If that is the case, then why does a clean, lubricated line shoot better? Why does the new sharkskin line allow people to shoot an additional 10-20 feet? Why are you a big fan of SIC rings, if they don't give you added distance?

I don't mean to be presumptuous. I'm just a noob, but I'm curious why you think that.

I didn't say that it wasn't an issue, I said it wasn't much of one. I would hope that it's obvious that if you have very poor guides - rough, rusty, etc., or an extremely dirty or worn line, you'll lose distance. But with average gear, the difference in casting distance caused by any reduction in friction between say, SIC guides and snake guides would be nil. It won't make much difference.

I prefer SIC guides over snakes because of the total package they offer - longer life (they don't groove), quieter, easier on fly lines, etc. If it was simply a matter of getting extra distance on the cast, I wouldn't spend the extra money on them. They won't add enough for you to notice.

And I don't "think" this... I know it. I had a casting machine that allowed me to actually test and see just how much difference the surface of the ring actually made in terms of casting distance. All else being equal, any smooth hard smooth surface is going to do pretty well.

By the way, I seriously doubt that the new "Sharkskin" line will add 20 feet to anyone's cast, if that person was already using a decent line to begin with. For most fly fishermen, that would be a sudden 20% to 30% increase just by switching lines.


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I have built flyrods using snakes, single foot wire, SIC, Cerment, REC alloy, and combinations. I am pretty sure that guide slickness makes little difference in the maximum casting distance for a flyrod. The reason: The limiting factor seems to be how much line the castor can effectively straighten out at the end of the cast. It does not do any good to shoot another 10 feet of line that is piled up in little loops when the line quits straightening out and falls to the water. Fly lines are heavy and I think the distance limiting factor is a generally a momentum thing rather than line friction. Some castors can "carry" a whole line out of the rod tip, some of us can not get the whole line out even with a good "shoot".

That said, I still find differences in how the different guides handle line. Short casts, little shoots under brush, shooting on the backcast, feeding line while mending, all work better with a good, slick guide setup. And heavy guides near the top cause the rod to be sluggish and not cast as well. I think the ceramic guides are well worth it on flyrods, even light rods, but not because of maximum casting distance. Well setup guides do improve a flyrod in its overall fishing abilities, but perhaps not so much in distance casting.

The worst part of snake guides is the heavy wire loop tiptop that is used with them. A SIC, or Cerment, or REC alloy tiptop will be a lot lighter and I think that improves overall performance enought to make it worth it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2007 09:06AM by Bill Moschler.

Thanks for the explanation, Tom.

I forgot everything I learned about friction from high school physics, so I looked it up last night. Interestingly, surface area and smoothness don't make much difference. I got the impression that hardness didn't matter. It is mostly determined by the chemical affinity (coefficient of friction) between the two materials and the force pressing them together (normal force).

Maybe one of you engineers should compare the coefficient of friction between an average fly line and the different guides available.

One more thing to add to what you so aptly listed - "...and the force pressing them together." This is a key to why the guide surface (within reason) doesn't make much difference on the cast - you have very little force pressing them together. Gravity is pulling the line downwards onto the guide surfaces, but that's about it.

Now the friction between line and guides while fighting a fish is entirely different precisely because that "force pressing them together" is going to be much greater and in that role, the harder and slicker ceramics do certainly shine.

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Come to think of it, the line shoots out at an angle from the rod tip. Most of the normal force would be concentrated there. The line goes through the stripping guide at some sort of angle. Those would be the main places where a really slick guide might help.

Are regular wire fly tops really heavier than SIC and Cermet?

They're not likely to be any heavier, although some of the larger pear tops are actually quite beefy with very long tubes.

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curtis, i've read many people surmising that if someone were to deviate from the standard wire type of guide for fly rods, that yes, the strippers and tip top are the places to prioritize.

eric
fresno, ca.