I just read the article "Your Next Idea Is Up For Grabs" on the last page of RodMaker Magazine, Volume 10, Issue 4 by Tom Kirkman - What a great article! This has happened to my husband about 5 years ago. He sent a prototype to a company to get their opinion. He did research to see if anyone was making this product and found nothing, and this company knew of no one making this product. They said it was a good idea. He knew it was not a big money item, but thought maybe they could work something out. As time passed he would call the company to see if they had made a decision on his idea. About a year later we found out that they were making this item and selling it to their vendors. He contacted the company and funny thing they said "sorry", the product had already been thought of by someone else. However, they did not mention this a year ago, nor were they making or selling this product at that time.

It's not about the money, but the idea that this company inappropriately took advantage of my husband’s idea! He has a lot of ideas and prototypes of rod building tools, but now keeps most of them to himself because of this problem.

Since that time we have talked about this, saying most rod builders know that this goes on, however, there are still reputable companies that do not make it a practice to pirate ideas from the many talented rod builders out there. Rod builders deserve recognition for the ideas they come up with that keep improving rod performance.

Looks like this happens a lot to other people or Tom would not have written this article. Is there anything that the rod builders can do to stop this problem?


Karen Williams

Probably the only thing that will work is to let the idea remain dormant in the dark recesses of your mind and never build, use, divulge, sketch, discuss with anyone - that would work but what a waste!

Cut the middle man out and start your own business. I've actually had a few ideas myself but after reading this I'll keep them to myself.

One of my teachers at design school said to ALWAYS get the company to sign a nondisclosure agreement at the bare minimum. If they don't want to sign one then go somewhere else or look in to doing it yourself. A friend of mine had a lawyer draw one up for him to use as a blanket form to send to anyone. I think it cost him about $100 but I could be wrong, it was ten years ago.

There are things that can be patented (not much use unless you think it's something that has some decent financial return). Other things can be copyrighted or trademarked. It all depends on what the item, idea or method is. Dr. Hanneman's Common Cents System, due to its introduction of totally new measurement methods for rod blanks (power by percentage of length to deflection and action by measurement in degrees) has easy copyright status and more legal protection is being looked into as we speak. Something like Scott Throop's Tiger Wrap could also be copyrighted or trademarked. Many fly tyers have attempted to obtain some sort of protection for their fly patterns, although only a few have met with success. So too, would be rod builders trying to obtain protection for various cross wraps or weaving patterns.

But in the end you're back to asking yourself what is it that you're trying to protect. In most cases, as the article points out, you were never going to make any money on the idea anyway. The cost to protect something may end up being greater than any financial income the item would ever generate anyway. This is why I mentioned that in the long run, the most many people can hope for is some sort of personal credit or recognition be given.

In your husband's case, the company now making and selling his product cannot prevent him from making or selling it. Provided, of course, that he can prove that he had a working tool prior to their introduction of it. In fact, this is one of the reasons so many rod builders bring their ideas to RodMaker Magazine - once it's printed and published they have ironclad proof of their idea/tool/method/etc., and it becomes a simple matter to shoot down later attempts by others to jump on that same bandwagon. Right now, there is a company that may be trying to obtain a patent on a particular reel seat design. Because that reel seat was shown in RodMaker some years ago, they will have a tough time getting the patent they expect.

There's a lot more to this and I haven't time for much more at this moment. All I can advise right now is that you do what you can to protect anything that you feel could be financially viable. Outside of that, you just have to hope that people will do the right thing, but as we've all seen lately, you have guarantee that they will.

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If you have an idea and or product, the best money you'll ever spend is on a copyright and or patent attorney. There are lots of books out there also, but an attorney is still the best way.
I have gotten into the habit of copyrighting or starting patent paper work for years because of graphic arts and electrical design that I have done on my own time. As Tom said also Trademark's are another way of protecting your stuff.
Remember it only takes one idea and a little time to have the next big thing in any industry.
If you only keep your idea's to yourself then nobody can benefit and then the industry and individuals suffers.

As Karren said "It's not about the money, but the idea that this company inappropriately took advantage of my husband’s idea! He has a lot of ideas and prototypes of rod building tools, but now keeps most of them to himself because of this problem."

There are a lot of companies, and really not the companies them selfs, but employees that have no morals and or principle's, that will take advantage of the unknowing!
This is a quote I read somewhere,
"Remember that if your going to talk about money make sure your the smartest one in the room."

If your going to talk about something and or show something to someone then have yourself backed up with an attorney or all the information you possibly can have.

Like Tom said there is a lot more to this and this forum doesn't have the room to talk about it all.

My company's patent attorney told me that patents, trademarks and copyrights are only worth the amount of money you're willing to spend to defend them.

I. It is absolutely wrong to believe that Copyrights are granted for Hardware. Copyrights are only granted for Intellectual works and NOT for Hardware items.

The following definition is from the U.S. Government Copyright Office at this web address:

[www.copyright.gov]

What Works Are Protected?

Copyright protects “original works of authorship” that are fixed in a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:

1. literary works;
2. musical works, including any accompanying words
3. dramatic works, including any accompanying music
4. pantomimes and choreographic works
5. pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
6. motion pictures and other audiovisual works
7. sound recordings
8. architectural works


II. Patents provide protection for "Hardware" items - But like Tom said, if the invention does not represent a very significant financial return (in the multi-millions) to the inventor, then it is senseless to apply for a patent for the following reasons.

1. Depending on the complexity and nature of the invention, it will cost $10,000 to $20,000 minimum to file for and get a patent.

2. If a patent is awarded, the inventor must constantly police the entire world to determine if his invention is copied.

3. If the inventor's patent is violated, then he must sue the violator, and will be facing at least $250,000 Lawyers fees and Court Costs with no guarantee of winning the case.

Just think of how many $1000 items that the inventor would have to sell before breaking even, not to mention the time and headaches involved.


Rena (if I had a worthwhile patent, I'd be tickled "PINK")

Another thing I would suggest is safety in numbers. I know for one that Tom does not allow any bad mouthing on this post but a company's reputation is everything. If word got out that someone was "pirating" a tool idea I think you would be surprised at how tight a community we rod builders are. I for one would go to no end to avoid a company that resorted to this kind of practice. Call them out and see. Perhaps others will think twice before pirating as they see this company's sales dive. Although I am a small fish (only spending $18,000 last year) on my supplies theres a lot of fish in my school. As I said we are a tight group and we look out for our own. Too bad we even have to talk about this as I for one try to run a honest business and unfortunatly expect that others feel the same way. I will go out of business before I will buy from a company I know is doing that type of thing even if they are the best price in town. The way I look at it just meybe I will have a novel idea some day and wouldn't want what happened to your husband happen to me.

Tom... as you know, it all gets pretty murky internationally. Add international oddities to having to pay lawyers to chase things down and arm twist. More money ya gots, the more likely you are to prevail (or at least bankrupt the other guy in costs).

I work in a different industry, which has very high patent and IP law stakes. My company wins every patent/IP litigation I've seen, and usually it is because we can wear down just about anyone. I believe we have been correct and righteous in those fights, but it really would not matter if we were or weren't. We'd overwhelm all but the largest adversaries anyway. Right or wrong, justice usually belongs to those with the deeper pockets.

I have not kept up on it recently, but last I looked Congress was looking to rewrite patent law. Would not matter who had an idea first. Again, right or wrong, that is how most international patent law works.

To some extent you need to ask yourself if you are looking to target a small niche that is not going to attract big interests, or if it is sizable enough to attract big interests and yet lucrative enough that you can easily afford protecting and enforcing it worldwide. Failure to duly protect a patent has been seen as giving up that patent in many cases/places. Same with trademarks and copyrights.

Patents, copyrights and tradmarks are all similar, yet quite different. You'd have to know which one to pursue for the item, method or design you're trying to protect.

I have a good fishing buddy whose grandfather invented pantyhose. That's right - pantyhose. They did get a patent on it way back in the 1950's I believe. Still, the product was knocked off by more than a few other companies shortly thereafter. In the end, after nearly two decades of litigation, my buddy's company (he had control of it by then) won out and he ended up with several million dollars in awards from the court. Of course, by that time, the companies that had taken the idea and made their own pantyhose, had made so much money that they could easily afford to pay the damages. They came out way ahead by simply ignoring the patent to begin with.

The point is that few large companies, if they see a good opportunity, are going to be stopped by a patent. Not trying to stop anyone from obtaining one if they really think it's worthwhile, but it doesn't guarantee you that somebody won't still knock you off. In many respects, copyrights and trademarks are much more easily defended. And, your tool isn't going to be protected by one of those. Most of the items we'd be talking about require a patent, unless they contain some element of design or shape that might allow them to fall under one of the others.

In the end, the best you can do is consult your attorney prior to doing anything with such an idea or item, and try not to take any viable idea or tool to anyone you don't have a really good working relationship with. Things like integrity and fair play often fall by the wayside whenever money is involved. This was really the point of the article - most builders can't protect their ideas and even when they do there is no guarantee that somebody still won't rip them off. It would be nice to think that the rod building industry is close knit enough that it will work with folks who come up with unique items or methods and at the very least, try to see that they get what they deserve. Even when that may only be some well known name recognition.

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First, as someone said ..... a patent or copyright or patent is only good if you can afford to defend it. Second, I'm not sure about copyright's but I believe patents are only good for a certain period of time so you'd better be prepared to use it when you patent it.

The Idea of publishing an idea/method/tool is a good idea. It establishes a point in time when it was announced and it also gives someone a little advertising to encourage investors or people willing to help in the process of making the product work.

I have to agree ........ you don't tell a big company unless you have something to force them to play nice ........ otherwise they will just eat you alive.

Sorry to hear you got screwed ......... if you have other Ideas ...... then put them to work and see them grow. If they're good enough you will be able to buy the company and fire the ones that stole your idea.

In life....... what goes around ..... comes around .......

**The Idea of publishing an idea/method/tool is a good idea. It establishes a point in time when it was announced and it also gives someone a little advertising to encourage investors or people willing to help in the process of making the product work. **

Not really. Under current law, if you have let something out the door in any way and not followed up on the filings within a year, then you are hosed. For instance, if you talked about something or showed it off a year before publishing, it is that showing that counts, not the publishing. You might be able to kill someone elses patent with that lead, but you gave up rights to your own if that year lapsed..

With the law change proposed, it really won't matter who came first with an idea. The first filer wins. That is how it works internationally. for the most part anyway.

In my industry, everything goes thru a legal review before publishing or presentation. If anything might be patentable, the patent application is filed before anything goes out the door.

No matter how much you spend to protect your item.......the people overseas will still copy and sell it?

There is no need to hire a Patent Attorney when applying for a patent. There is no legalese when writing the patent. All it takes is time to do it and you will save yourself $10,000 - $15,000. I wrote my own and was granted a patent.

Nice to hear all the ideas, information and concerns on this subject!

It boils down to just asking if it is ok to use someone’s idea and showing some form of appreciation, not necessarily monetary. Many ideas are minor details in building a complete rod, but all the details provide many benefits to the end product.

Thanks for the many comments!

Karen Williams

Tim is correct. An individual may file for a patent under "small entity status" and file and perhaps receive a patent for under $1000. I was granted one that I did that way. Of course, I had to do my own "prior art" search and write my own claims, but it was financially feasible at that time only by doing it that way.

However, the patent language is very important - in the number of "claims" you make you must be able to describe the item in enough specific detail that it's obvious what it is, but still vague enough that a copycat can't get around it by just changing a specific item and claiming it's something different. And this is something that most individuals aren't really good at. If you don't write patent claims for a living, the writing and phrasing of your claims may not be up to snuff. You may well get the patent, but it might not be much good.

Beyond patents and that sort of thing, I'm reminded of something that Scott Throop told me just prior to submitting his article to me for publication in RodMaker. He said something to the effect that, "Somebody will eventually figure out how to do this, put in on the internet and then everybody will be doing it and forget who came up with it originally." Scott knew that he wasn't likely to ever make any money on the technique outside of the sales it may have garnered him on his own rods. But he wanted to at least be remembered for bringing the technique to the rod building craft. I hope he will be and think his article will help to associate his name with the technique. In fact, I think that in many cases this is all that most inventive rod builders are really after - just a little credit for what they brought to the craft.

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Tim,,, you aren't the guy who did the "laser pointer cat exerciser" are you? :-) Yeah, believe it or not, someone got a patent on that.

The USPTO site lists the schedule of filing and maintenance fees. Something like $800 per patent is possible, but you can well be billed for the investigation time of the examiner too. Of course that is just the US, and nowadays it is the international patents that drive things more and more.

Most all the fishing related hardware is made in China, and they care little about IP over there. If they can make a buck, they will do it however they want to. Threatened with any litigation, they close up shop and open another with a different name. It is a great shell game. Motorola, for example, has been going nuts trying to catch who rips off their headsets and technology. All the fashion houses and recording houses of course have similar problems.