I am working on a Copper and black wrap. I applied 2 coats of Gudebrod CP to the Butt wrap and let it sit for a couple of days. I then applied CP to the guide underwraps and let it sit for about 6 hours. When I put the epoxy on the underwraps the Black thread bled onto the copper turning it black. I'm guessing I didn't wait long enough on the underwraps CP to dry? I then decided to try the Butt wrap since I knew it would be completely dry. It did not bleed but the copper wraps turned very dark in most areas. I saturated the butt with CP twice... Is this normal? Is it due to uneven distribution of the solids in CP? I used the same CP on a Black and silver metallic wrap and had no bleeding and no issues and only did one coat of CP. Not sure what happened figured you guy's would have some thoughts.

As far as I am concerned,,, using CP is a crap shoot,,, and we are the ones getting the crap.

Copper metallic? Post a picture. IT's not the CP, unless it was really thick when you applied it.

Fred, it's only a crapshoot if you don't put the time in to figure out how to get it to work for you. If there are people using CP with results which give them suitable results, then it's not the CP or it would happen to EVERYONE, which is not the case

What color is the underlying blank. The copper darkening is probably due to lack of thread packing and not related to the CP.

The blank is black! I thought I packed th threads closely... Perhaps not.
I guess your indicating if the threads have spaces it is the blank I'm seeing and perhaps not the Thread getting dark!
I'll see if I can ge a pic!

Just on the chance... did you thin that CP?

..............

Billy, you know the best cp is long gone,,, you can test til you blue in the face,, each time is still a crap shoot... one day you can have a great outcome, the next, using the same cp have a piece of garbage. That is why your are constantly "testing" .. Same stuff,, same bottle, different thread color. Test all you want,, somewhere along the way you got to finish a rod.

And when you get to silks,,, it is a whole new game.

Fred, once I figured out how to us the CP I'm using - I have not had a problem. TEhre's dozens of wraps posted by people from all over the world, which use CP, adn which there are no problems. The reason I'm testing CP's, is to find onw which retains teh color of the spool the best. THEre hasn't been a single CP tha tI used which has been inconsistant from test to test.

I'm not sayin gCP's are the most consistant product out there, you just have to put the time in to get them to work for you.

havent tried the gudebrod cp but the u-40 color lock is great....ive used it a few times and have gotten nothing but excellent results

i just recently started using CP and was sceptical before i used it but now i use it on everything and love it :)

Tommy, any chance you flexed the rod between putting CP on and the finish. I have seen people have problem like you discribe when the flexed the rod prior to applying the finish. What size and brands of thead are you using? Also what brands of CP and Finish.

Just Curious Fred. What type CP did you refer to as being gone that was good. I used to use Gudebrod back in the 70s that was awesome. Sank into the thread and cured very quickley. I wonder if that is the one you are referring to.

Rule of thumb, use dark thread over light colors, never light over dark. The best Cp is no Cp. Jesse

I've never had the slightest problem with any CP and have used U-40 Color Lock, Brilliance, SC215, CPX, Gudebrod 811, and now, Diamondite. Other than rods with solid black thread, I think I've used CP on every one of them.

When someone has a problem it can usually be traced to some small step in the application. The trouble is getting an accurate run down of everything that somebody did.

................

Doc,

The old Gudebrod Nitrocellulose Laquer CP is probably what you are referring to. It fell out of favor due to supposed blotchiness and the fact that it was a laquer and would crack over time. But like yourself, there are still a bunch of rod builders who would gladly go back to it if they could get it.

................

Thanks Tom. My best buddy us a Taxidermist and has access to the chemical you just mentioned. I smell some testing in the future. Back to the search for the perfect CP.

ps I just realized what I said about smell. As I remember this stuff it was quite odiferous and maybe a bit dangerous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2007 04:56PM by James(Doc) Labanowski.

i dont know why everyone says light colors over dark blank makes the light color darker....i use white over black blank all the time with cp and the white looks as white/light as it does on the spool

JOn, try this - paint a 1/2" section of scrap blank with white paint. Wrap 1" of white so you end up with 1/2" over bare blank, and 1/2" over white. CP and epoxy adn you will see a slight difference. This is true even with NCP White. DOn't believe or disbelieve me, try it yourself.

FLASH. I just got some of that nitrocellulose Lacquer stuff from My buddy. Smells a lot like 811. Start testing tonight if I have time.

Everyone has their own opinions on CP or not to CP, to use only NCP or not use NCP, to call something crap is their opinion and sure does not help the person asking the above question. I for one use all of the above and have had excellent success and ony thru testing the products have I found that success. True some of the todays CP is not as good as others and lately I have had to start testing these CP's
after a GOOD product formula change. Tommy....do a little testing as Billy V suggests, this will tell you your problem.
I for one thank Billy V for his testing of any and all CP's he gets his hands on, and hopefully he will let us all know what he finds suits him best. One just has to look at Billys colors to know he must be doing something right. [besides he may save me a couple bucks on testing the same products]

OOPS !!!! stepped on your toes Doc {I am a two finger typer}... If that Lacquer CP is anything like the CP Cabelas sold many years ago BEWARE...I used this product and it worked and looked great until a bit later it turned blotchy and looked like Krinkle Coat. Let us all know how your tests turn out.

Tight Lines
Tight Wraps
Fishin'Stix by Fred



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2007 08:04PM by fred schoenduby.

Doc and others interested in Nitrocellulose lacquers. This information is from Taunton Press, the publisher of "Fine Woodworking", a very good magazine:

"Lacquers -- Most professionals still regard lacquer as the best all-around finish for wood because it dries fast, imparts an incredible depth and richness to the wood, exhibits moderate to excellent durability (depending on the type used) and rubs out well. There are several different types of lacquer, and they exhibit different performance characteristics.

Nitrocellulose lacquer is the most common. If the label on the can says lacquer, it's most likely nitrocellulose, which is made from an alkyd and nitrocellulose resin dissolved and then mixed with solvents that evaporate quickly. This type of lacquer has moderate water resistance, but it's sensitive to heat and certain solvents. The biggest drawback is the finish's tendency to yellow as it ages, which shows clearly on light-colored woods.

Acrylic-modified lacquer is made from a mixture of a nonyellowing cellulose resin (called cellulose acetate butyrate, or CAB) and acrylic. This lacquer possesses the same general properties of nitrocellulose lacquer, except it is absolutely water-white, meaning it will not show as an amber color when applied over light-colored woods. Also, the finish won't turn yellow over time."


I would caution anyone who uses this type of product to use adequate venting. The solvents should not be used near any type of open or sparking flame. Use good sense on this type of product for your health and safety.


Some of the better grades of lacquer are musical instrument grades, such as Behlens Nitrocellulose Stringed Instrument Lacquer and Behlen cautions: "Nitrocellulose lacquer products should not be used with acrylic lacquers", so don't mix types. Also, this type is more flexible as they say: "Stringed Instrument Lacquer produces a hard, durable finish that's less brittle and more flexible than standard furniture lacquer, specifically to accommodate the expansion and contraction of wooden instruments. Stringed Instrument Lacquer finish has better resistance to cold-checking and scuffs than standard furniture lacquer."

Here is a discussion about CAB lacquers that are somewhat different than nitrocellulose lacquers and which may or may not be more useful as a color protector. This is from a white paper pulished by Professional Finishing Magazine (Credit is being given for copyright, and this info is available on the web, as well):

"CAB or CAB-acrylic lacquers have a few distinct characteristics of their own, several
which are improvements when compared to NC lacquers, but at least one that is a
disadvantage. CAB lacquers are clear or “water white” even without the addition of
acrylic polymers. These lacquers apply very well, but require a slightly different solvent
balance than do NC lacquers. Therefore, standard lacquer thinner may not be an
acceptable viscosity reducer. Often, if the manufacturer discloses the components of the
lacquer or the thinner for a system (in an MSDS or more rarely on the labels), you will
find that CAB lacquers will contain higher proportions of acetone and alcohols than do
NC lacquers, and possibly little to no hydrocarbon diluents such as toluene due to
compatibility issues. Which brings us to the drawback of CAB, which is its relative lack
of clarity as compared to NC lacquer. CAB has a tendency to be a little less transparent
and almost cloudy at times. The addition of acrylic once again improves the result, but
the tendency is still there. This is why compatibility with hydrocarbon solvents is
considered because they can exacerbate the clarity issue in CAB lacquers. I recommend
staying within the manufacturers guidelines on reducers for CAB systems for best results."


I don't have any brand information about CAB lacquers, but perhaps someone else here can give us one of those.

All the best.

Larry

ill try that tomorrow billy im definately interested in seeing the results

maybe i will take a picture and post up the results for a reference for someone else?

I'm Using the Gudebrod. Didn't fles the rod I don't think... I never even took it off the Lathe....
I'm using a embroidery thread 40wt Sulky for the most part but ther is one other in there and I forget the name.....
I'm guessing I goofed somewhere...

Tom... Nope not thinned at all. I asked that one a while back and followed your advice :)
Don't really understand it but I'm gonna strip it off and try again.. fortunately I only screwed up the 2 top wraps and the Tiger Butt wrap....
Would it be ok to try one of the other CP's over what i have already done? If so any advice on which one and any necessary steps to appply CP over CP of a different brand?