I'm sorry if I'm being a dunderhead about the new system that was in 10-4. But I've been playing with it for a couple of weeks, and I just can't seem to get my head around some aspects of it. Feel free to delete this thread if I'm being too much of a pest and asking too many stupid questions.

Here are two aspects of it that are contradictory:

- The article states that you will never need to use more than 4 transition guides.
- Tom, in a post here (I think), said that the only time the spool width x 27 method doesn't work is when the spool is large enough (and the rod short enough) that your choker point ends up being past the tip top. In these circumstances, your tip top becomes the choker.

Obviously, both of these can't be right. You can't use the top as your choker, and then use only four guides from the reel to the top.

The logical thing to do would be to treat this as the aberration from the method that it is, and to use as many transition guides as you need. But doing so (and I tried it the other day) results in a rod virtually identical to the old "cone of flight" method, where you gradually reduce guide sizes until you get to the size of your tip top. I thought the main thrust of the New Concept method was to get away from this, and to reduce guide sizes quickly to improve performance.

I've thought about this a lot (too much, really) the past few days, and I have come to the conclusion that in tip-is-choker situations, you'll either have to arbitrarily move the choker point back about a foot, and run a few running guides from there to the tip top, or construct the rod with nothing but transition guides (aka the old cone-of-flight method, which I never liked). I'm having trouble, on an theoretical level, accepting either. What gives?

Again, sorry for being a pest with these posts.

Chris,

There are some rods, very rare, but it happens, where you end up with a bizarre situation such as you'd have with a very large spool reel and a very short rod. The New Guide Concept was not designed for this. If you have such a situation, and the factor would put your choker guide out past the tiptop, then you have to do something else. The farthest out you could put a choker guide, would in effect, be the tiptop.

So, yes, you have something similar to the old cone of flight system. If you move the choker back, so you can shoehorn in something that shouldn't be shoehorned to begin with, then you may have casting problems. In these situations, forget about the New Guide Concept - it wasn't designed for what you're trying to do.

It's important not to put a square peg into a round hole. You can come up with any scenario to baffle any guide or placement system if you have a situation that is at some extreme point. The New Guide System as presented is designed for use with the vast majority of spinning rods where the reel size and rod length is within what most of us would consider normal or reasonable. What we don't want to do is bastardize a great system in order to make it conform to oddball rod/reel combinations. And, such rod/reel combinations are used mostly for fishing fighting purposes, not casting. Do what you have to do to make those work out for you and use the NGC on the other 99% of the rods that it was designed for.


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I don't think you can ever come up a with any guide placement system that will work on every rod. So you set up for what is considered normal or usual. If you change the choke guide position then how is it going to work on longer rods with smaller reels?

Chris, even with your suggestion, how would I set up a rod with a Penn750 reel on a short 4 foot rod with a foot and half reel seat location? Should my choker guide also be my butt guide? Just playing a bit of devils advocate here. I can't see any "system" working with these really large reels and short rods. You just have to tape up some guides and get something that works for you. Remember, the line from reel spool upsweep to the rod intersection point doesn't work with these large reels and short rods combos either. They're an abberation like you mention and you just have to play around to get something that works with them.

I understand the factor given in the new system and like it. No matter how it was arrived at it does seem to fall perfectly in line with what I've been doing on most of spool upsweep to rod intersection point. An average? I don't know, but it's working great for me. The distance is important within a few inches I'd think so if you have a rod that is so far out of the norm that it puts the choke guide off the tip then you have a rod that is not a good condidate for the New Guide System. Even Fuji in their old Concept charts didn't offer any spacing or sizing for large reel and short rod combos.

Custom rod building isn't about theories. It's about what works. The New Guide Concept in the last issue is just great IMO and works like a charm. But as Tom said you can always come up with some rod and reel combination that isn't going to be suitable to use it on. In that case, do something different and just try it out for yourself and use whatever works best.

There is a little used thing around called "common sense." Not trying to be offensive to you Chris, but this is a little silly, do you not think?

You are stuck on the idea of locating the choke guide in a certain place and then using the number of transition guides listed. But if you cannot locate the choke guide where you need to, what would make you think you can still use the number of transition guides listed? If you have to throw out or change one part of the system then you can expect to throw out or change the rest. Looks to me like you need to use something else on that type of rod.

No one is stopping you from moving the choke guide to where ever you want. Move it back a foot, or two feet or three and go out and try it. The system was not designed for your type of rod and I do not know any that is other than the Cone-Of-Flight system. If you do not like that one then try something else. Something will work but you have to try things. You are not working with the type of rod that was described in the article. The proper tool for the job is always important. The New Guide Concept is not the proper tool for the job in this case from what I can see. It has worked well for me in all instances but I do not build spinning rods where I have huge reels on very short rod blanks.

Chris is asking a legitimate question and I sense his frustration, but it is important to remember that when you have something that won’t work for what you’re trying to do, you have to back up and find something else that will. That's just part of custom rod building.

When I prepare articles for the magazine I often get into discussions with the authors on just how much depth is needed; how far do you go to explain things and how much space are you prepared to use to cover every conceivable scenario. Rich Forhan and I had this discussion not too long ago. Rich is a very concise and effective author, but as he explained to me, he does not and will not spend page after page trying to cover every possible scenario that might arise. He expects, as do I, that reasonable people will use the basic procedures outlined and in those situations where the scenaro encountered is outside the realm of the procedure given, that they use a little reason to either adapt or create something different to get the job done. I guess I sort of feel the same way in the articles I write, but do go into more detail than Rich does. Still, there are always situations that will fall outside the parameters given. You just have to recognize when that is the case and in such a case, do something different.

There is no need for anyone to bang their head against the wall over something like this. If the factor puts the choker guide off the end of your rod, do something different. In nearly all cases where a builder is working with the normal spinning rod, the factor and other information contained in the article will provide you with not only a workable system that outperforms anything else, but one that is also easy and quick to set up. But again, if you have that extreme situation where you have a very large reel mounted to a very short rod and the factor puts the choker off the tip, you need to adapt or do something completely different. Any system that would work well on that type set up is going to be far from optimum on the remaining 99% of the spinning rods that are being built out there. The New Guide Concept is designed for traditional spinning rod and reel combinations, it was never intended for stand-up type rods and reels.

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I am in the same scerino as Chris with a 5.5 ft UL with a underspin reel. I placed my rod on the table with the cover off of the reel and the center of the spool on the edge of the table and the rod did not intersect the edge of the table. So i dedcided to try the cone flight set up and work with it some to see what i can come up with. But if someone has built UL with underspin reel and has a better set up i would appreciate their ideas or advice.

Roger

A couple of things:

1) Thanks for taking the time to clarify, Tom. It makes sense now. Those rods that are outside the system are outside the system, and you have to find some other way to configure them. I intuitively figured as much. On the rod I just finished spacing, for example, after much testing and experimentation I ended up with a configuration that didn't fit any system, but one that worked well for me during casting. When I'm in doubt, I always go with common sense rather than a system.

2) I did NOT post this to disparage the New Concept system. If I didn't like the system, I wouldn't have bothered -- who cares if a system you don't like doesn't work? I posted this because I am an enthusiastic believer in the New Concept system, and wanted to make it fit an oddball situation. I was almost certainly trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, but I was doing so because I like the system, not because I wanted to trash it.

3) I understand what you're saying about the articles, Tom, and I recognize that this was in the Beginner's Corner of the mag. It's gotta be hard to be as comprehensive as you want to be without losing a lot of people.

I have the problem of having more interest in these topics than just "I have Blank XYX and Reel Q in my hands, and I need to make them work." For better or for worse, I like to pursue these ideas to their logical conclusions, becuase I've found that while doing so might slow you down a bit on this rod, it can help you greatly on subsequent rods. I like figuring out what to do, and why to do it.

Roger, I set up my rods for underspin reels the same exact way I set them up for fly rods. The line is already "choked" by the hole in the top of the reel cap. I use a double foot fly stripper guide, then #6 ceramics out to a #6 ceramic tip. Works great. If I use a TN handle, I can easily use my rods for both fly and underspin. Neither New Concept or Cone of flight make any sense for underspin rods, unless you will also use them with open-faced spinning reels in which case you'd want to have them New Concept style.

Roger,

That's not how the recent article suggested you locate the choker guide. Steve also makes a good point - you're basically using a spincast system, upside down so you really aren't having to deal with the line coming off the spool in large coils. You can pretty much set it up as a casting rod, upside down.

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Chris,

I'm glad you got it where you wanted it. I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. Just pointing out that sometimes in this craft we run into things that are outside the box and will require some individual trial and error.


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I did not find your question to be out of place. I enjoyed reading all the responses as I am still in a learning mode on the "new concept guide placement". Many of my recent builds are exactly as Tom stated....Large spinning reels with short rods. I personally have found that following the NGC method with the choker on the tip works but I always fudge a bit after doing some test casting. Next build is a 5'8" jigging rod with a Stella 16000. This one should be interesting.

NOt for nothing, all these guide placement and spiral wrap methods, are NOT absolutes. Thy give a general idea on how to go about spacing and placing guides on a rod - the fine details SHOUILD be worked out by each individual rodbuilder for each application that rodbuilder builds rods for. If you just read everything and accept as Gospel, how much to YOU really know? Set the rods up & cast & fish them and see what actually works for you. You might find this system is the eprfect method for you. Or you might find the old system works best. Maybe it's the cone of flight which you feel most comfortable & get teh best results with. Whatever it is, you'll never know unless you take the info you soak in and turn it into knowledge by tinkering.