This is my first post all though I been following this forum for an extended period. I could use your help reguarding spirial wraps. Has anyone ran a comparison test on two of the same blanks, one with a standard guide set up and the other with a spiral wrap. How does the casting distance compare for the two rods? I have a customer that would like to try the wrap but I cannot advise him on how it would effect his casting distance. The blank would be a Lamiglas XMG Popping LP 843. Your expertise will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

No difference I can decern on my rods.

How about on FIVE of the same blank? Well, #5 is still in the works, but I hauled four Calstar 270-8's out with me on several Party Boat trips this year. One "factory wrapped" (guides on top) , a simple spiral, a slow spiral and a Revolver (Forhan) spiral. #5 is an O'Quinn spiral that I should be getting to in the next few weeks. These blanks are a staple out here for fly lining Sardines, throwing Leadheads, etc...

The point of building this set was to overcome the very objection you're talking about. Castability. The #1 comment from the "know it all's" on these Cattle Boats that have never seen/tried a spiral is, "no way it can cast as well". Lemme tell you, more than a few Beer bets were lost with these rods. lol

When the 5th is done and the Fleet is in for the Winter, I've got a couple of Deckhands that have volunteered to throw a hundred casts with each and I'll post the data on our site along with a "how to" article I've been working on for each type. We're planning on using them in a casting contest at a Rod get together out here next Spring as well.

Other than opening a lot of eyes (and minds) on the local boats, the only measured casting that's been done with them has been twenty casts with a 3/4oz leadhead out behind the shop. "Best to Worst" between all four was less than 10%. I'm sure different blanks and different guide set-ups would yield different results. I picked these blanks based on local popularity.

Stay tuned...

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

I run into the same thing from people that automatically assume the spiral rod will lose distance. I have a couple "Loaner" sprial wrapped (Simple spiral) rods that I loan out and they have sold a lot of spiral rods for me. Like Mark, I haven't found any difference

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Assuming that both guide set ups are done properly, you will not find any practical difference between the two.

Obviously, a poor implementation of a spiral wrap, or any guide system for that matter, would result in lost distance.

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Thanks for your inputs. I feel comfortable moveing ahead with this project. Mark I will be looking forward to reading your results in the casting contest.

Charlie Roberts

Mark: From a marketing perspective there is a vast difference in a "customer attitude" of "objection" and that of "skeptism". You deal with a skeptical person by producing proof sources that are acceptable. Many times it will require several to win the guy over. An objection is one that must be dealt with by stressing Other Benfits of your rods that will outweigh the perceived areas of weaknes. Many times fishermen are "skeptical" of anything that does not conform to the visual norm. Real interesting stuff here on spirals that may just improve your market penetration.

This subject is one of prime importance when attempting to marketing a concept. The seller makes a claim - the potential buyer may be Skeptical - at that point an acceptable proof source must be provided that is acceptable to the buyer. Other than direct use and comparison by actual testing the best thing I have found is a reprint of an article titled "Outcast the Competetion" published in Bass and Walleye Boats - February 2007 in the Tackle Tested Section written by Steve Bowcutt. This full page article with photos provides direct test data pretaining to casting distance with identical casting rods built by Texas Sidewinder Rods equipped with Diawa Zillion 100SHA casting reels. This complete article presents real world data where spirals easily out cast other conventional rods. This article by an independent writer is a real asset to anyone trying to "sell" spirals.

I really believe that the proof sources provide by the "experts" will have more value that the actual testing done by the vast majority of rod purchasers. Many do not have the skills to do a proper casting test and their results could damage the real credibility of the spiral.

Gon Fishn



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2007 11:05AM by Bill Stevens.

I have had this same discussion with Doc Ski and most people assume that spirals will somehow cast more poorly than a good spiral. What I find is that when I build a spiral, I use a lot less guides and therefore cut down on the friction. So I have had pretty much the same experience as Mark with castability, especially on the salt water stuff. I built a "super-salmon" rod for a friend in Alaska his favorite blank but wrapped it with a spiral and the first thing he noticed was that it "sure did cast a whole lot farther than the old one". Now he wants a couple more so I guess I will just have to take them to him next summer.

The guides on a conventional rod can be set up to maximize casting distance by creating a straight line path from the reel to the tip of the rod. It is impossible to set up the guides on a spiral wrapped rod so that there is a straight path for the line from the reel to the tip of the rod. The path of the line must go around the rod in an arc. The guides can be set up on a spiral wrapped rod so that this arc is small but the line must travel in an arc to get from the top of the rod to the bottom of the rod. If the line travels in an arc there will be a loss of momentum. Momentum is mass times velocity but velocity is a vector quantity not a scalar quantity. This means that it has both magnitude and direction. If the direction changes (travels in an arc) there is a loss in momentum. If there is a loss in momentum then the line will not travel as far.
There are also going to be slightly more frictional losses for a spiral wrapped rod than a conventional wrapped rod that is set up for maximum casting distance as well due to the fact that there must be more contact between the line and the guides because the line must change direction as it travels in an arc.
A properly set up spiral wrapped rod WILL NOT cast as far as a properly set up conventional rod.
All of the marketing @#$%& or all of the improperly run tests or anecdotal data in the world will not change this.
If you want the loss in momentum to be as small as possible so that the difference in the distance cast between a conventionally wrapped rod and a spiral wrapped rod is as small as possible you will want to make the arc that the line must go through as gradual as possible. You will want the line to pass as close to the rod as possible as it travels in an arc around the rod and you will want the arc to be as long as possible. To maximize the casting distance you would want the arc to extend all of the way from the reel to the tip of the rod but this would naturally defeat the purpose of spirally wrapping the rod. So you pick whatever approach to spiral wrapping you prefer and you may get the spiral wrapped rod to cast very close to as far as a properly set up conventional rod but it WILL NOT cast AS far.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2007 12:26PM by Emory Harry.

Emory I had occasion to inspect and redo several high dollar Kistler rods in the past month for prominent tournament bass fishermen. The line flow you note is the key. The Kistler production rods used too few fly style low profile guides on the rods. When this rod is flexed either for casting or fish fighting the line immediately drops below the rod blank in four to five locations and causes horrible line drag on the blank. I would run out of low profile fly guides building this type of rod "correcly" with the guides on top pretty quickly. One quality builder of these rods is presently placing 14 guides on top of a 92 inch blank with a 11.5 in rear grip and conventional seat. There are acceptable trade offs in nearly everything we do.

I will courteosly ask you to set up a fast action flipping stick with single foot fly guides and let me know how many you would use to properly set it up. I use Ralph's straight line set up quite successfully to accomplish the line flow you are noting. There are some blanks that this is almost impossibe from a practical standpoint with the guides on top. I can see that you are probably one of the persons that does not see this as a "skeptical" issue and that no amount of actual Proof Source material will sataisfy YOUR NEED! I am quite glad that I deal with a larger group of rod purchasers that will sometimes accept valid proof source material before making up their mind. In my world I am kinda like you I guess - I still believe that there were Weapons of Mass Destruction In Iraq!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2007 01:18PM by Bill Stevens.

Excellent response Emory - that explaination makes perfect sense to me.

Bill,
I agree that there are trade offs to be made when selecting the number and size of guides. You can optimize one characteristic of a rod at the expense of another. Fewer and smaller guides will result in a rod that is lighter and will be more sensitive but disadvantages will be higher stresses and poorer line flow. In fact, that is my point with conventional versus spiral wrapped rods, each has its own advantages and disadvantages. But casting distance is not one of the advantages of a spiral wrapped rod.
As far as your "Proof Source" is concerned I guess that all I can say is you pick yours and I will pick mine. If you prefer to pick some article in Bass and Walleye magazine that is fine with me but I think that I will use my admittedly limited understanding of basic physics and my own common sense.

Bill,
There is one more important point that I probably should have made and did not. Part of the difference of opinion or the reason that people do not in their casting tests see the difference in the casting distance of conventional and spiral wrapped rods is that conventionally wrapped rods are usually not configured for maximum casting distance. Either the reel sits too high on the rod and/or the guides sit too low, particularly the first guide, so that there is not a straight line path from the reel to the tip of the rod. This can result in there being as much change in the direction that the line is moving with a conventional wrapped rod as with a spiral wrapped rod and therefore the losses can be just as high or possibly even higher. And I will readily concede that if you get the guides on the conventionally wrapped rod up higher the result will be higher torque. As before, it is all a question of trade offs.

The point I missed kinda goes like this:

I build rods for sale

I personally prefer the spiral: easy set up of multiples, cheaper due to less guides, fewer returns due to breakage, no tip tangle, less line drag while jigging and flipping and most importantly the marketing advantage of uniqueness.

I find the concept an exceptional buy trigger to get people interested in custom rods. The spirals are not available at the local discount store.

I do not believe there is a significant difference in casting difference either way.

I have an exceptional repeat business with spirals.

I want to expand sales to new customers.

Casting distance will ALWAYS be a skeptical issue that always come up and must be properly dealt with. I do not recall anyone that ever bought their first spiral that neglected to bring up the subject. The incorrect response at this time will end the sales process and the potential customer will walk!

Nobody will ever believe the seller's sales spiel - won't happen - you will not BUY what I say and I will always question what you say. Human nature.

When the question comes up I use the best available proof source material that meets MY NEED to sway the customer into purchasing one of my rods. If he won't budge I also have a few conventionals in purple and gold for his viewing pleasure.

It works better than most sales techniques. If I don't sell rods I don't stay in business.

Bill



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2007 02:23PM by Bill Stevens.

Bill,
Well I guess you and I just see things differently. I do not want to sell any rod based upon a misconception or misunderstanding on the part of the buyer. I may unintentionally mislead a customer because of my ignorance but I am not going to intentionally mislead anyone over the lousy price of a rod. Maybe I am naive but I believe that over the long haul it is in my interest to be as honest with the customer as I know how to be.
I might buy your "less tip tangle and marketing advantage of uniqueness" but I don't buy your "easy to set up multiples, cheaper due to less guides, fewer returns due to breakage, less line drag while flipping and jigging". You may sell your customers on those being advantages of spiral wrapped rods but you will not convince me.

I will smile and say my prayers before I go to sleep tonight and I am quite sure you will do the same. Different strokes for different folks. Your statements stating my intentional misleading a customer are not warranted by anyting that I previously wrote. And there is a huge difference between Price and Cost. My customers see one and not the other. If you were one of the potential buyers of a rod from me I would not bother with more than two proof sources move ahead to your color choice. If you had customers yanking on lite to medium throwing trout and redfish in the boat the weigh 2-3 pounds all day long you would understand the lower return rate. Eiere the Twain Shall Meet!

Gon

Emory,

We're back to the same argument. If one rod casts 100 feet and the other will only cast 98 or 99, my stance would be that there is no practical difference. While it would be technically correct to say that the spiral rod does not cast as far, that's also somewhat misleading if it makes the customer somehow feel that the difference is large. It isn't.

To tell a customer that there is no practical difference in casting distance between the two is neith misleading nor incorrect. There is no practical difference.



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Tom,
I agree that if both rods are set up so as to get the maximum casting distance that the difference is not going to be large. The key is how each is set up and I do not think that most people are setting the guides up so as to get the maiximum casting distance from either. But it has been stated here a number of times that there was no difference and Bill stated that the article in his magazine stated that "spirals easily outcast other conventional rods". In my jugment that is @#$%&.

First, let me clarify something. The point of my "Acid Test" is not to show that a Spiral will out cast a Conventional. It's simply to show what Tom just mentioned above. There's no PRACTICAL difference. The Beer bets that I mentioned above were very simple. A guy would throw my factory wrapped rod at a Paddy, and I'd hit the same Paddy with a spiral rod when they bet I couldn't. Not exactly rocket science.

As you can see, this subject can cause "heated" debate. I'm struggling right now with putting the proper controls in place for a "test". Short of having a casting machine to make the casts, the best I can do is have two different people throw a ton of casts with each set-up, throwing out five the best and worst casts from each. I'm still trying to decide whether or not to use the same reel, with the same settings on all five rods, or whether to adjust the reel to each rod. There IS a difference there. not all of the set-ups feed line the same. What (setting) casts well on one rod, can cause a lot of backlashes on another. What ever we do, I'm sure it won't satisfy EVERYONE. I'll probably put up a post asking for suggestions on the test controls before we do it.

Emory,

After reading the posts above, I'm curious as to the percentage of conventional rods that you sell with guides on top, VS spiraled. I know it's not the end all-be all answer to everything. It definitely has it's place regionally and there is no one perfect set-up across the board. Different species, require different blanks and different blanks require different set-ups. I'm guessing that your demand is probably more for Salmon rods, where Bill's building for Reds & Specs. Any "prefered" set-up for you?

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

I would never say they outcast conventionals, but my own tests have never shown even a 2% difference. This is why I tell people who ask that there is no practical difference.

I think it can be just as misleading to say that conventional rods outcast spirals as to say that spirals outcast conventional set ups. Neither tells the full story and deprives the customer of the big picture.

Just as asking someone to answer yes or no to the question, "Do you still beat your wife" precludes a full picture of the truth, so too does a simple answer that one casts farther than the other. We need to quantify these statements with additional statements, or even better, some numbers.

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