Tim Collins Wrote:
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> Good article Don. I subscribe to the belief no
> single person knows everything.

Hi Tim,
There is so much to learn. The rod is only a part of the total picture. The biggest factor is the fisherman. In April I suffered a pinched nerve in my neck so I have been a little inactive recently. Previously I would alternate casting practice and fishing on Sundays. I attended Tai Ji classes on Saturday mornings and was at the gym Wednesday evenings. As in other sports, health, strength and muscle memory are very important. Even your reel needs to be properly tuned or adjusted for your conditions. Some considerations are the type of bearings, oils, brakes and/or mags, line size, line fill and line memory or other required line characteristics. Thew list goes on and on.

Mahalo,
Don

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> That's the problem, stringing one up tip to butt,
> or rolling it while flexing it, doesn't
> approximate anything that actually happens when a
> fish is on the line.
>

OK, I'm not doing something right. I'm casting more than I'm catching.

My focus has been on being able to choose the distance/spot that I want to fish. This means being able to crank up the power and put the bait where I want it. I have never had a fish stress a rod to the degree of a hard cast.

Again, casting has nothing to do with rod spine. If you need more power for casting, you buy a more powerful blank. The difference between the stiffest and softest axis on the same blank isn't that much once you take the time to actually measure it. And, the two are not opposite of each other as so very many rod builders seem to think. The stiffest axis is not 180 degrees opposite the spine.

The stiffest axis of the blank is normally along the straightest (concave/convex) axis. The effective spine is along the softest axis. These two generally fall anywhere from about 20 to 170 degrees apart.


.....................

Dave Gilberg Wrote:
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> I am becoming convinced that in all areas of
> performance there is one positive influence which,
> though it eludes all quantitative measurement,
> can still provide a distinct benefit; and that is
> the aspect of CONFIDENCE.
>
Hi Dave,

Totally agree.

I have a friend who is retired and on fixed income. As a gift, I offered him the choice of two commercially built rods. One had a broken guide while the other had the guides at 90 degrees to the spine. Some tackle shops in Hawaii will not accept rods with the guides over 45 degrees off and 90 off was not acceptable. I needed to either return the rod or dispose of it. My friend chose the rod with the guides 90 degrees off. He made three test casts at the field and put the rod away. The following Sunday he returned the rod with the guides removed and the blank nicely cleaned. He asked me wrap the rod with the guides at either 0 or 180. The following Sunday I returned the rod at the park and he again made three test casts of the rod. He was all smiles as his distances had increased by 10 yards. I believe that the huge gain was due to CONFIDENCE or PRIDE of a friends gift.

Don

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> Again, casting has nothing to do with rod spine.
> If you need more power for casting, you buy a more
> powerful blank.

This is very common mistake made by tournament casters and long distance fishermen.
If you want more power (meaning distance for a given sinker) one needs to optimize a rod for particular body style/characteristics to achieve maximum transfer of power.

Danny Moeskops just set a new world record of 313 yards. Until recently, people would rush out to buy a rod just like Danny's. I'm sure other industries face the same issues.

If more distance (power) is needed, one first needs to address the fishing conditions and type of cast to be used. The type of cast dictates the rod action required to achieve optimum results.

Sometimes advancement and raw data simply cannot compete with long held beliefs.

Perception is reality.

I first heard that phrase in government service about 15 years ago and hated it. I still do. Unfortunately, it tends to be true in so many areas. I fear change, but as I've learned so many times, change is sometimes good, especially when the change is proven to be good.

At one time, it was written that the earth was flat.

Mick;
It was not just written that the earth was flat; it was a crime punishable by death to utter any disagreement to that dictum. Thankfully the disagreements over rod spine do not bring any punishments close to that; just some some lengthy discussions that seem to leave opposing sides strengthened tin their beliefs.

Don;
I think the point Tom made about power being a function of the rod itself does not contradict the influence of the style of the caster. I would expect that once a given caster reaches his maximum distance with a given rod he will have to move up to a more powerful rod to gain any appreciable distance. This cannot be an infinite progression as there will come a point where the rod will be too long for him to cast effectively or too heavy, etc. The salient thought, though, is that power is directly related to the inherent properties of the casting instrument. Perhaps it would be most accurate to consider the caster as an integral part of that instrument.

Dave

My point is that spine orientation is not going to give you a noticeably more powerful blank. Yes, the blank will be more powerful in one place (concave) and least powerful in another (effective spine) but the difference between the two is very slight. If you need more power, you buy a more powerful blank.

Much has been written about how important spine is, but in 30 years of doing this I have to see anyone prove that it's important. It was an assumption made some years ago and was written about so often that many new builders simply assumed it was correct. It was not. Repeat something often enough and it'll be accepted as the truth. That's what happend with rod spine.

The problem we so often run into is that a beginner will read all this nonsense about how the spine has to be oriented in a particular place or his rod will twist (spine orientation has nothing to do with rod twist) or it won't cast straight (also false and this has been proven in tests with a mechanical casting machine). The beginner then gets so confused and worried that his rod is going to explode or catch fire or something if he doesn't put the spine in a certain position. In fact, these false assumptions about spine have probably done more to stop interested parties from giving rod building a go. And that's a shame, but spine is much ado about nothing.

I really don't care where anyone orients the spine on their rods. And no particular position is going to ruin the rod nor make a so-so rod great. Spine just doesn't come into play in that manner under practical application of the rod. I would like beginners to know that spine is among the least important things they need worry over when they start building rods. It is truly unfortunate that a myth has caused so much confusion and worry among folks that would like to join the rod building craft.

................

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Question - I notice that spine and orientation are used in the same sentence structure and that rod performance is not related for several reasons. I would like to know if "orientation" is related to blank failure. Situation. A particular blank is historically known to fail in a definable narrow zone. All the failures in the similar area are known to be compession failue either due to long term fatigue or "high sitcking. It would seem that "orientation" of the blank so that maximim numbers of fibers would be on the bottom, in the suspect area, would be warranted. Is this logic sound and can the blank engineer of composite blanks using different modulus material give some clue as to where and how to locate the fiber concentration around the blank circumference.

"My point is that spine orientation is not going to give you a noticeably more powerful blank. Yes, the blank will be more powerful in one place (concave) and least powerful in another (effective spine) but the difference between the two is very slight."

When you put together all the factors for casting, it does make a difference. This includes spine, oil, bearings, spool balance, line size and composition and wind resistance. Although each contribution may seem insignificant, totally thay can make the difference between winning a tournament and coming in second.

"If you need more power, you buy a more powerful blank."

This may be true for some, however if you buy a more powerful blank, you may achieve less power.
A quote that has gained notoriety in the long distance fishing and tournament realms is "If you cant bend it, you can't cast it."

I would "guess" the statement to "buy more power" to be true for rods up to 11 feet (obviously not boat rods). However, I would also recommend that fishermen should evaluate their ability to cast a particular rod before buying one that is 12 feet long or longer.

Bill,

I'm a little lost by your question.
Is the blank all graphite? Composite tip?

Here's what I understand:
Axial strain can cause the fibers to break down. This is reported to be prevalent with fiberglass rods.

So, if the blank is composite and uses fiberglass to provide additional hoop strength, it may be helpful to replace some of the fiberglass with carbon fiber. Depending on the group, the term composite has many meanings. If the blanks have the last couple of feet being solely fiberglass, then high sticking breakage should be minimized.

A few months ago I replaced several newly purchased commercially built rods that were broken at the tip. All claims were that the rod broke on the first cast with 4 ounces. The importer was expeditious in their replacement. I took the remaining 5 rods that I had in stock to the field for testing. My objective was to cast 5 ounces (their maximum rating) a minimum of 140 yards. All rods were successfully cast between 140 and 151 yards with no tip breakage. However, I did cast one hard enough to shatter the handle. I highly suspect all the tips were broken by high sticking as these were all graphite rods

Maybe the failures were a combination of factors. Both time and abuse.

Dale was an insurance salesman and his rod building business was a sideline. I don't know about insurance but he was very good at selling rod building.

Don,

I am not saying to buy a rod that you cannot "bend." I am saying that you should buy the blank that you can "bend" the best. And just flipping one over doesn't change the power to any large degree.

If you read the article on building surf rods in RodMaker, you will plainly see that in order to get the most distance out of a blank, the user must have something which is optimal for his or her personal power and casting style.


..............


Bill,

Putting the axis with the greatest number of fibers on the bottom would not have anything to do with the spine - the spine is an effect, not a physical thing and orienting it up or down does not put the axis with the most fibers on the bottom, nor the top. You're talking about the concave axis, the straightest axis, which is what most builders do.

Loomis has had some test equipment for some years testing rod blanks for strength in all axii. The rod is equally strong in any and all positions. If the rod does not twist, twist cannot destroy it. Putting the guides on the bottom of the rod prevents twist.

...............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> If you read the article on building surf rods in
> RodMaker, you will plainly see that in order to
> get the most distance out of a blank, the user
> must have something which is optimal for his or
> her personal power and casting style.
>

Here are some of my statements from this thread:

"If you want more power (meaning distance for a given sinker) one needs to optimize a rod for particular body style/characteristics to achieve maximum transfer of power. "

"If more distance (power) is needed, one first needs to address the fishing conditions and type of cast to be used. The type of cast dictates the rod action required to achieve optimum results."

"There is so much to learn. The rod is only a part of the total picture. The biggest factor is the fisherman."
" As in other sports, health, strength and muscle memory are very important. Even your reel needs to be properly tuned or adjusted for your conditions. "


I have only recently subscribed to the RodMaker magazine and have not seen your article on surf rods. I was impressed by Bill Stevens article on the use of Perma Gloss. I went from using varnish to high build expoxy and was not aware of this great product. I will be using Perma Gloss for my competition rods. For me, Bill's article paid for the year's subscription.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> His argument made immediate
> sense to me but we proceeded to string up a few
> blanks, orienting the spine on top, bottom, side,
> etc, and then put them back into the spine fine.
> In every case, no matter where the spine was
> oriented, the blank spun so that the guides were
> on the bottom of the rod.



That doesn't seem like a fair assessment - anyone would agree that the guides on the bottom will override wherever the spine is on the rod. I believe the case is whether the person can "feel" any difference with spine orientation, not whether it can influence the direction the rod flexes when loaded.

Tim,

As much sense as it makes and as it easy as it is to prove, you may not believe it, but not all agree that the guides will spin towards the load. For 25 years the Rodcrafters organization maintained that spine orientation was the key to preventing rod twist. I even offer the test data and a simple experiment to their editor which he refused to publish. Only after that data and test was published in RodMaker did the Rodcrafter group retract their position of some 25+ years.

To this day, many folks still think that the guides on a casting, or spinning rod, must be placed in a particular position related to rod spine or your rod will twist. The fact is, any rod with the guides located on top will twist under load, regardless of where you orient the spine. And any rod with the guides on the bottom will remain inherently stable under load, again regardless of where you orient the spine.

Great harm has been done to the rod building craft by those who confuse beginners by telling them that if they don't orient the guides in a certain plane and position that their rod is going to twist or spin, or something else even more horrible happen to it. It's just nonsense.

Now what Don, you or others choose to do with the spine is up to the individual - there is no right nor wrong position for spine orientation. Do with it what you will. But I hope no one here will join those who confuse and confound the beginners by making out the spine to be so very important. The fact is, it's hardly important at all.

By the way, spine does not influence which direction the rod flexes when loaded. The tests have been done to prove this - it's not a question and hasn't been for some time.

........

Tom,

"the spine is an effect, not a physical thing"

What actually causes the effect? The effect must have a cause...no?

DR

Right and we've listed those in past RodMaker articles.

There is no physical spine running up and along a rod blank, but the nature of rod blank manufacturing means there will be some anomolies that create the effect that people refer to as "the spine."

Any variation in wall thickness around the blank.

Any voids in the composite lay up.

Any flat spotting due to the final sanding operation.

Any natural curvature of the final product.

Any unequal resin concentration.

And a few other similar anomolies.

All of these, combined, end up making the blank want to favor a certain position when flexed by hand. The spine is the average of all these factors combined and the deeper you flex the blank the more you'll find that the position we call spine seems to move. When you hear someone say the spine spirals around the blank, this is what they're referring to. It doesn't physically spiral - the effect does, however.

But put guides on the rod and load the rod via that means and you can toss most of this out of the window - it won't matter.

Nearly any round shaft will have a similar effect if it shares similar manufacturing anomolies.

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