I have been away from internet access for a few days, and just got done reading the technical discussion about impedence and sensitivity involving cork and other materials (thanks Emory). What about using no grips at all - other than a cap on the butt to protect the blank. If I read Emory correctly, the amplification would be reduced by not using cork (or similar). But, if no grip is used, mass would be reduced, and sensitivity would be increased - right? Yea, I know that comfort may be comprimised, but closely matching seat and blank diameter could get you something tolerable.

So, I guess that my ultimate question is - would not using a grip reduce my sensitivity?

I was just about to start building a rod in this manner (Lami XMG50). Thought that I should ask before I screwed up a blank that is supposed to be already super sensitive.

Thanks,
Drew

You mean something like this? : [s128.photobucket.com]

Not using a grip is NOT going to reduce your sensitivity.

DR

DR,
Yep, something like that. But, insead of a traditional seat, I was leaning toward a fuji skeleton. Who needs all that extra plastic in the center? I'll get rid of it and have nothing but blank in between. Insead of a exposed blank seat, I will just have exposed blank. I am just trying to go to the Mo Yang school of thought here. Nothing more than what is needed. A few guides, a little thread, a dab of permagloss, a skeleton, and a ring of cork on the bottom. With a reel, I hope on it weighing under 10 oz.

if you are going to go through all that why not do the threadless guide wraps too?

Have tried full skeleton spinning and casting reelseats they are light, but not at all comfortable to fish all day. At least for me they aren't . Having something between the skeleton pieces at least on the top half of a spinning seat is more comfortable. The reel's foot takes care of the bottom. An 18mm NPS reelseat with nothing else is about right for my hands and very comfortable with the threads pointing forward.

Jon,
It is a 8'9" steelhead rod with a spiral wrap. I will use a minimum of thread. I have read the reports of others on a threadless wraps strength, but old habits die hard, and I do not know if I could trust it if I got ahold of a big chinook. Peace of mind I guess.

Spencer,
I guess that I should have stated it in the original post, it is to be a casting rig. I will tape things in place and see how it feels before mixing up any epoxy. An epoxy ramp could help round things off if needed.

If maximum sensitivity is your thing, then reducing weight and paying attention to the materials and use you do use is important. But you have to look at things in a broader perspective as well. If you do something to keep from reducing sensitivity by a little, but you end up with something that's uncomfortable to fish with or won't do the required job, then maybe it was the wrong thing to do. A bare bland would be the most sensitive thing going, but it wouldn't be very comfortable, if even possible, to fish with.

It is possible to have a very sensitive rod and still have one that is comfortable and highly functional. It just requires some forethought. If you do the skeleton seat right, you can gain direct access to the blank while still being able to securely hold a reel and perhaps have something reasonably comfortable in your hand. By the same token, how much difference in sensitivity is there going to be between that direct contact versus the same seat properly bonded with very light but highly rigid foam or cork arbors? Some, but how much? I doubt it's much at all, but this is the sort of thing we're trying to find out.

..............

Drew,
You are right. The more you can reduce the mass and the fewer changes in material than any vibration must travel through the better the sensitivity will be. Your concept of not having any handle material would be a definite improvement but I also wonder if it would be comfortable to fish with.
Also keep in mind that added mass has a much larger affect on lowering sensitivity when added near the tip of the rod than when added near the butt of the rod. Minimizing the added mass at the handle is sure important in terms of getting the maximum sensitivity but minimizing the added mass toward the tip is even more important.
In your shoes I think that I would use the lightest blank for the weight that I could find, use a split grip to reduce the amount of cork, not use any shims between the blank and the cork, use as light weight reel seat as possible and then concentrate on using as small and light weight guides, no more guides than absolutely necessary, and with as small wraps and little epoxy as possible. You will probably have more affect on the rods sensitivity with how you handle the guides.
By the way, I made a serious error in that article. I assumed that the more movement that there is at the tip the more movement that there would be at the handle. In other words, the stiffer a blank is the poorer its sensitivity. This is wrong. If the weight does not increase as stiffness increases then the stiffer a rod is the better the sensitivity. The reason being that it takes energy to deflect the rod. That energy is momentarily stored in the rod in the form of potential energy and does not get to the fisherman's hand in the form of movement.

Drew - I think you may be on to something.

let us know if you get around to trying it, and if so, how it works.

i think I'll be giving it a whirl before too long, as I think the setup with a casting rod would be comfortable for me

Drew, Ken Whiting has done what you are thinking about. The difference is that for comfort, he build the handle right from the blank - one flowing piece. You can see it on some Airrus or E21 (the new company he joined) models.

However, I'd note that Whiting's rods are not particularly lightweight nor does he generally use the lightest guides. He's asserted a few times (at least to me) that lightness is overrated - and it's the distribution of weight that matters. I'm not sure I agree with that myself.

Mo

Mo, thanks for the Airrus reference. Still a lot more "stuff" on it than I was thinking about. It will not be a thing of beauty - just what is absolutely necessary.

Everyone else, thans. Yes, I am rolling with light guides, wide spacing, and little thread and permagloss. I'll try to get it rolling in the next few days. Can't wait to bust out the scales when it is done.

Drew

Well, you're starting with a large diameter blank which will help a bit in the comfort level. I'm guessing your blank is about .5 inch at the butt right? Let us know how it goes as I'm quite curious.

Mo

I have built lots of bass baitcasting rods with split reel seats and I think they are very comfortable, but some customers don't find them as comfortable as myself. [www.rodbuilding.org] If you palm the reel all the time there would be no problem in not having grips.

Good luck.

Stan,
I think that you have done a nice job with that grip and reel seat. However, there are two things that will reduce the resulting sensitivity. First, I have weighed that material and it is quite a bit heavier than cork. Second, you have had to use some sort of shim material between the blank and the handle material which will add weight and will create two discontinuities, one at the junction of the blank and the shim material and one at the junction of the shim and the handle material that will also reduce the sensitivity.

Emiory,
Thank you. I was only showing the picture because the poster asked about skeleton type baitcasting seats. He wasn't concerned about adding grips so the texilum weight doesn't matter to him and also if you don't hold the rod by the grip but by palming the reel whatever happens behind the reel seat shouldn't effect sensitivity. I don't understand about disconitnuities but how are you supposed to eliminate them? This was just a blank exposed reel seat that I cut up, so there is no shim in the back only an arbhor in the front. Again if you are palming the reel with your fingers wrapped around the reel and the blank I think the sensitivity would be about as good as you could get.
Stan

Stan,
Even if you are palming the reel any mass that is behind the reel will still affect sensitivity especially under some conditions. For example, if you are holding the rod parallel with the water so that the line is coming straight through the guides to the reel then the properties of the rod have virtually no affect on the sensitivity other than the total mass of the rod and reel. And in this case it doesn't make any difference where on the rod that the mass is. It is just the total mass that will determine the sensitivity. You are right though that if you are holding the rod so that the tip is at a higher angle to the water then the properties of the rod come into the picture and mass at the tip has a much larger, exponentially larger, affect than mass at the butt.
When you hold the rod so that it is parallel to the water then almost any place that you hold the rod will be the same in terms of sensitivity or what you feel. But when the tip of the rod is raised to a higher angle then you are right again and most of what you feel will be at the reel seat and not at the handle material.
As far as the discontinuity is concerned, any time vibrations coming up the rod pass from one material to another the amplitude and the velocity of the vibrations change plus part of the energy in the vibrations will continue on into the second material but part of the energy will be reflected back and will not pass into the second material so in terms of sensitivity some energy is lost. So if you have say masking tape between the blank and the graphite tubing in the handle some of the energy will be reflected and lost at the junction of the blank and the masking tape and then more will be reflected and lost at the junction of the masking tape and the tubing. How much is reflected and how much is transmitted into the second material is a function of the mechanical impedance of the two materials. The mechanical impedance of a material is a function of the mass density (weight) and the elasticity of the material.
I hope that I said all of that clearly. There is an article in RodMaker, Volume 10, Issue 1 that does a better job of explaining it.
If you get RodMaker and read the article though ignore what I said about stiffness and sensitivity. I had my head up my backside on that part.

Emory got you. in bass fishing the rod is held tip up in most applications, the ones were you hold tip down such as crankbaits doesn't require as much sensitivity. Just so you know there is no masking tape on any of my rods, lol.

Stan,
Understand, but I just used masking tape as an example because it is pretty bad, high mass density and low elasticity, but the principal is the same for any material that you use as a shim just the mechanical impedance changes.
It is really hard to beat good old cork that is reamed so as to fit directly against the blank. I think that these old f---s that built rods 50 and 75 years ago were not all that dumb.

Emory I understand what you are saying, but sometimes a little added weight toward the butt of a rod is a good thing balance wise. I was talking about the reel seat which is what the poster asked about how are you supposed to eliminate shims?

Just for information purposes I just weighed 6" of cork rings vs a 6" peice of texilium tubing and they weighed exactly the same .64oz. Now I realize the cork hasn't been glued or shaped and the tubing hasn't had "shims" made but I don't think for a 2.5"-3" grip per section that the tube grips would hurt you, as you said that since the rod would be used tip up the tiny extra weight wouldn't make much of a difference, plus they look cool. Also these rods are being palmed with super light reels (5.7oz), would using lighter reels help with sensitivity more than what handle material you are using? I can save a ton of weight with just reel choice.

Stan,
The blank through reel seats do not really require any shims.
I weighed some cork and Texilium several months ago and found it to be heavier than cork by quite a bit. I will have check and do it again.
Yes, you are absolutely right about reels. You can save more weight with light weight reels than any other thing that you can do.