I have a question for the profesionals that I just can't answer.

I have a customer that wants a Bass casting rod made with a spiral wrap. He wants the lightest rod and components that fit his budget. Without a doubt he wants a GLoomis GL3 6-12lb rod (C721) and Holo guides with gold rings.

I have done spiral wraps with bigger saltwater rigs but this rod is one I desperately need to get right as it could mean alot of business for me.

I was thinking the American Tackle GZHC Casting Guides starting with a 10, another 10 at 90deg and an 8 on the bottom transitioning into matching size 5 GZHF Fly Guides. with a 5 tip top.

To be honest I could probably research it and find the answer but I am absolutely SO short on time. I have to get this rod made before next week and I don't have a single component to start with.

Any help that you guys can give me would be greatly and I stress GREATLY appreciated.

I don't buid any Bass rods BUT a size 10 butt guide seems a bit to small.

As far as the Acid Wrap the easiest and most functional is the bumper wrap system where you set up the guides as you would normally and then invert them all (except the butt guide and throw another halfway between the butt guide and the following guide.

the 10 may work, depending on the reel, I'd really want the reel that was going to be used to set it up. you may want to go with a 12? probably woldnt need to go larger than 12 though.

either way, I'd look at a 12-10-5s with an 8 bumper

or

10 - 8 - 5s with a 6 bumper.

I'd also look at putting the bumper on the same side of the rod that the reel handle will be on as most guys fishing form a bass boat would want it this way.

split grip, with a 3 cork ring butt, and no foregrip or an epoxy ramp foregrip and just enough cork behind the reel seat to fit his hand comfortably.

there are certainly lighter guides out there, but not sure if you'll find lighter in the holo/gold combination. I'd say go with them if they fit the customers preferred look.

Scott Youschak Wrote:
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> I don't buid any Bass rods BUT a size 10 butt
> guide seems a bit to small.
>
> As far as the Acid Wrap the easiest and most
> functional is the bumper wrap system where you set
> up the guides as you would normally and then
> invert them all (except the butt guide and throw
> another halfway between the butt guide and the
> following guide.


Yep....thats what I plan on doing with the 10 butt guide and an 8 180 to that with another 10 between. If the 10 is too small, I can always go larger. I just need to make sure before I order the components tomorrow.

Joshua Turner Wrote:
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> the 10 may work, depending on the reel, I'd really
> want the reel that was going to be used to set it
> up. you may want to go with a 12? probably
> woldnt need to go larger than 12 though.

The line at the stripper is basically constrained by the guides's outer edge and the clearance of the blank+bumper in the line transition. You will not get ring usage on the side opposite the transition side. Sizing the stripper on a spiral is, thus, a rather narrow and different set of considerations.
My belief is as large a ring as you can stand, which is still low. With most guide sets, over a size 12 the leg heights grow quickly. So offhand, I'd say a 12, based on that alone. Tape up your guides, including the bumper, and reel with line. In the area where you want the stripper then, you can then measure the height for the lower end of the ring and determine which ring size seems best by meauring the size required when the line is on the same side of the spool as the transition side. My rule of thumb,,,, ring size greater or equal to the blank diameter at the line transition point. Measuring with the reel is best tho.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2007 11:34PM by Dave Hauser.

There is nothing wrong with a 90 degree transition spiral wrap, but I'd go with the Simple Spiral if it were me.

If you're using a narrow, low profile reel, then a size 10 guide might do it for you. A 12 could be bent/shaped to sit a little lower. I'd move right to the 180 degree guide and probably use a 6 and then more 6's on out, as many as you need.

If you want to keep the line from rubbing the blank between those two, stick an 8 or a 6 in there halfway between those two but don't adjust the spacing to accomodate the bumper guide, just add it in there.

..............

So what you are saying is go from a 12 zero guide right into a size 6 at 180? What about a 12 to an 8 bumper then a 10 or 8 at the 180 out to 5 fly guides? Sorry to be asking so many questions here but I just can't afford to make a mistake with this rod.

The bumper guide is only there to keep the line of the blank, you're only looking for a little height here nothing else. Lager guides don't help here.

Yeah, it sounds like an odd looking thing, but the biggest problem with that first 180 is getting the line to bear on the ring. The smaller the ring and lower the guide, the less load the blank will require before that guide carries its weight. Your thought to make it a 10 means that it will be difficult to get that first 180 to carry a load.

If anythig, you can argue that it should be smaller/lower than the 2nd 180. Do some searches and you will certainly see cases where people put a smaller guide in that first 180 position, than in the 2nd position

Tom's advice on straight 6's is based on avoiding that loading issue in a reasonable way. The staging of guide sizes is traditionally done to try and not choke the line down too fast. But of course the Concept system has shown a fair bit of falacy in that choking concept, and in the case of a spiral, the line trasnitioning past the blank is already going to choke down the line from the reel. Some games can be played with different sizes in those 180 guides, but going straight 6's as Tom suggested is going to get you around most messing about and give you something that works.

Doesn't sound like you've much time to play around with it afterall.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2007 12:29AM by Dave Hauser.

**Lager guides don't help here.**
I'll contend that is not entirely true. Without the bumper being on, note where the line crosses the blank unloaded, and then under load. It will cross more toward the butt under load. A bumper guide is fixed tho. The more flex you get in that section of blank, the less optimum a single bumper position. Larger that bumper ring is, the less loaded it will be under those circumstances and the freer the line is to transition naturally. If you can get away with it and you want to use a guide for the bumper, single foot fly guides are the lowest made where you can still use a guide ring large enough to avoid sideloading it and allowing the line to make the most direct transition path.

Dave,
I've sent you an email. If you got it - you know your options. If you didn't get it - and you still have some questions - I've been down this Spiral road a few times - since your running out of time - give me a call. Check my web site revolverrod.com for more insight into the Revolver style of bass rods - and my phone number to shorten your learning curve. I've been working on 14 bass technique specific articles and custom rods for Tom that should help - if I could only stop playing around and get some finished!

Dave,

That was all covered in the article and how to use a fixed bumper position without side-loading the guide was fully explained.

...........

Easy enough to see it in realtime. When I was looking at using a guide as the bumper, I marked the range on the blank where the line crossed from unloaded to heavily loaded, then put the guide smack in the middle of that range. Fine tuning had me rotating the guide a bit more ventral than 90 degrees as well, so that the inner ring surface was just barely out from the blank when viewed from straight above. Under loaded conditions I then had the line clearing the blank by less than the bumper guide height itself would allow for if it was positioned at 90 degrees, precisely at the crossing point for that level of load.

In the end tho, I'm going down the path of turning stainless bumper rings, suspended by turned viton rings. A guide is certainly the easiest off-the-shelf component to utilize, but I rarely go the easy or well worn path :-)

That was covered in the article. On some rods the proper location won't be 90 degrees. You also have to be careful about the distance between your butt and first 180 guide. The specifics given took care of all this.

..............

Yep, and watching the stripper to 2nd 180 distance as well, since until you get the 1st 180 loaded, that's a vulnerable span.
Working out in realtime, hands on is the best solution. All the variables are then less variable. Until you have your line height, guide heights, blank diameter, and action sitting in front of you, you can't get into the tuning much. If you did, of course, it wouldn't really be a custom endevour..
Frankly, I wish there was a lot more in slower and progressive blanks in the corners I've been looking into. They mechanically work better with getting the guides to load, even if making the line crossing point more variable. You have to play with the other variables much more to optimize a blank that doesn't want to bend easily toward the butt end.

Do it the way the article suggested and that first 180 guide will be loaded. Put enough load on any blank and all the guides will load.

People are making far too much out of the loading of the first 180 guide - unless you simply use the wrong guide sizes, it will load when it needs to. The guides don't need to "load" unless there is sufficient load there to require it.

Spinning rods have been in use for decades now and there's not been a problem with their guides "loading," whatever that means.

Please don't take offense, I don't mean it this way, but often you don't want a blank that bends easily toward the butt. To switch blanks or actions because you think the guides aren't something on it that they don't need to do anyway may not be the best course of action.


...........

**Put enough load on any blank and all the guides will load.** .... that's a key and arguable stmt

OK,,,,take a simple spiral rod, all strung up, and hang a minimal amount of weight off the end. How about 1oz. 99.9% of the time that line will not be in the bottom of the 1st 180 guide, ready to take a load in synch with the blank. In fact, you likely have multiple 180's not brought to load. By my thinking, the less load required on that blank to get all the 180's bearing load in proportion to the blank bend, the better. This problem is pretty unique to spiral wraps. Comparing to a spinning rod is une herreng rouge as it does not have a transition across the blank. That transition defines the spiral loading issues.

So back to that **"Put enough load on any blank and all the guides will load."** stmt..... 'enough' is subjective. The amount required is very much determined by the builder's attention to geometry and dynamics. When is it good vs bad? Tough call. Certainly if at the point your reel drag breaks free, if that 180 isn't loaded at that point, then it may as well be cut off the rod. Reel drag is usually set at 1/3 line test as a rule of thumb. So a rule of thumb for a passing spiral might be something like all the guides are loaded at 1/3 the minimum line weight the blank is designed for (and the less the better)

**it will load when it needs to. The guides don't need to "load" unless there is sufficient load there to require it**. ???? You mean before the rod snaps due to lack of proportional support, like high sticking. :-)

A blank that bends easier in the 2nd 180 to stripper section just makes it easier to bring the first 180 into loading. That's what I meant with the slower blank mention. Interesting enough, that late loading characteristic also changes the action of the rod to act different than it would if wrapped in another style. Just as different actions lend themselves to different fishing, some will also yield a better load balanced spiral than others. None will be impossible, but certainly some will behave better and more linearly than others. As with most things, you must draw a balance between components. If you were to, say, choose an extra fast heavy blank for a spiral, then you have a lot less margin for guide and spacing choices, and a whole lot more probability you will require a lot more to load all the guides and distribute the load nicely to the blank.

I'm thinking more about the optimal tune, rather than the simple spiral. The not-so-simple spiral perhaps. Without goals, even if not completely attainable, where's the fun?. I'm feeling more in the R&D mode than production end of things. If I did it to make a living, I'd think differently on my goals perhaps. My goals on spiral are: minimal load to bring all guides to bear, as straight a line path (horizontally and vertically) as the blank and reel will allow for at all load levels, not imparting off-center torques in solving those issues,,,,, and not drill a hole trhu the blank, and not slice up fingers or the front grip in usage.

**Please don't take offense,** ... I never do in tech debate Tom. I can be right or wrong, but the path is enlightenment either way.

I definitely wasn't looking to start any sort of debate. I appreciate all the help and I'm sure that my rod will come out great! Thanks again guys!

Hanging one ounce of weight on a bass rod and expecting it to put pressure on the first 180 guide is just not reasonable. It might not, nor does it need to. If this sort of thing was a problem, we'd have had spinning rods snapping in the butt section for decades. Of course, we haven't had that happen. When you get enough load on the blank to put that area under enough stress to worry over, guides set as the article stated will work just fine.

I would select my blank based on the action that I require to do what I need the rod to do, not to get the guides to "load" or whatever else you might feel necessary.

If you want line pressure on that guide right off the bat, it all has to do with guide sizing. We've covered this topic here previously. You can easily get pressure on that guide immediately, just by switching one guide size.


............

The 1oz was a random choice, but I believe in the point. A spiral has a different dynamic than other types,,,,, tip and stripper load easily and the ones between sequentiually. That first 180 is only a concern because it is in the least flexible position of the 180's and the line takes a steeper angle between the stripper and the 2nd 180 guide before it.

Other than some folks who like a line hanging above a stripper in casting, I don't think anyone would want to see the line hanging in the ring on any conventional wrap. Almost assuredly folks would say you picked the wrong guide sizes. It is nary impossible to get that same standard with the same load in a spiral. But that's what I attempt.

And while you say it is easy to get an immediate level of loading on the first 180, I've yet to see any rod photo showing such. Seen plenty of 12 and 6 oclock pics and questions concerning the same tho.

On a little rod, maybe one guide size could work because a few mm's is a large % of the transition degree. Depends upon the spacing, blank diameter, and guides on either side. A bigger rod and you aren't getting satisfaction that easily.

I rather like the spiral pass/fail thought that all guides should be bearing at 1/3 the lightest line designation for the blank tho. It's a mark with something quantifiable behind it.